Mark Duckworth 0:00
So therefore, if you don't just rely on the report, obviously it's important, but you actually think about, how am I going to communicate all of this knowledge to this person so they get it, so they really feel that they understand what you're saying, then I think you're really offering real value. You're not just giving another vanilla report that any old subhead can provide or get one off the internet or chat GBT to write one. You actually are being a human talking to another human about something which is incredibly important to them.
Marion Ellis 0:31
Welcome to the survey hub Podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do. I'm your host, Marion Ellis, and today on the podcast, I'm chatting with Mark Duckworth, Director at Martin Mortimer, Chartered Surveyors. Mark has had a really interesting career and demonstrated such resilience to become a surveyor and a surveying business owner. This is an inspirational podcast for anybody on their surveying journey. I hope you enjoy it.
Mark Duckworth 1:01
Hello, Mark, hi Marion. Really good to see you,
Marion Ellis 1:04
as I know and we've so this is my first podcast that I'm recording in a year, which feels a bit weird, so I'm a bit nervous. And what's great is over text theft about this morning, hasn't it? So I'm glad we, we finally got here and we're able, we're able to chat, but it's lovely. And I've, I've been looking forward to recording podcasts. I haven't done it for for a while, for lots of different reasons, but I'm pleased the first one is with you.
Mark Duckworth 1:35
Thank you. Well, I'm delighted, Baron, I um, I really appreciate what you do. Actually, you seem to cover different angles in the surveying world which don't normally get exposed. And I think you You're very good at bringing a community together. I think that's really, really positive. So yeah, thumbs up from me,
Marion Ellis 1:58
yeah. I don't know how that happened. Hey, I meant to be interviewing you, not the other way around. I don't know how that happened. I think, I think, really, I've just actually created the things that I needed, you know, and that's just where it where some of these things have started. But I was trying to remember, I can't remember how we actually met. Been on you for a couple of years now, yes,
Mark Duckworth 2:23
yeah. Did you join one
Marion Ellis 2:27
of my early masterminds? Was it maybe? Yes,
Mark Duckworth 2:31
I did. Yes. I think that you came over to see us on a strategy day, which was really useful. Yeah, but I again, on all candor, Marin, I've been in a I've really genuinely appreciated your input. And again, because there's, there's a great need for people to be constructive and what I would call adaptive in their communication. I mean, there's so many negatives going on, and we don't need any more exposing of this, that and the other, unless it's necessary. But in the surveying world, as you obviously know, there's been such change, and the change will carry on at a pace, and I think it needs to. There's lots of good things to talk about, really, hopefully, some of which will come out today. And I just find you interesting in as much you're a catalyst and a facilitator for interesting discussion points, which now, with the onset of social media, means that there's a huge marketplace where people are meeting and chatting and on relevant subjects. So that can only be a good thing, really. So as I say, conversations,
Marion Ellis 3:35
yeah, I'm blushing. I was going to say, I'm glad this is a podcast, but we've got a recording, so very blushing. I think, I think the conversations are important, even if they're uncomfortable, because it's what comes out, what comes out of that. And we're not very good at having those conversations or talking in general. Did I say as surveyors, you know, we're great on the technical side of things, not so much about talking about each other feelings, what's going on, unless we were getting to the angry get out of our chest stage, yeah. But there's so much yeah that can happen before, before then
Mark Duckworth 4:15
I think you're on the money there, by the way, yes,
Marion Ellis 4:19
I agree. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And you know, the thing about, you know, this may have Facebook group or LinkedIn or social media is, you know, and I think particularly through lockdown, you know, we've had to learn to talk to each other and learn to type, you know, and things get taken out of context. And it can feel that, you know, we're all very angry and fed up or abrupt and rude, but, you know, quite a few of us out there are dyslexic. We're in a rush. We're typing things where we're in our heads, not in the, you know, in the conversation. And I think it's all good, good, good learning. And context is context is everything. And for those, I agree with that, we. This? Yeah, I was gonna say so for those who don't know you, your tell us a little bit about your business and the work you do.
Mark Duckworth 5:10
Okay, so I run a practice of charter surveyors by the name of Martin and Mortimer, started back in 1965 and Bishop Stortford. And it's been through various ups and downs over the years, but we've got it to a good place now. So we basically are mostly residential. That said, we do do some commercial work, but really it's general practice, although we are deciding very much to not forego our traditional routes, undertaking building surveys, valuations and so on. But really there's a decided strategic pivot to more Building Surveying, particularly project work. And I have various reasons for that, because I see a lot of very keen surveys coming into the market, which is fine, and I applaud that, but sometimes there are surveys being fees, which are just not sustainable for us, really. And so that market is changing, and I accept that. So I just feel there's an importance to bring on people and develop people who have real key understanding of Building Surveying, namely Design Oversight of projects, problem solving and just who people can inspire confidence in people who have a building maybe need to be retrofitted or thermally upgraded or change of use, and that's a real key skill. And as you know, moan, I take the view surveying. It's a bit of a time honored thing. Really, you do have to rack up a lot of experience not just get qualified to have really credible ability to not just inspire confidence in your client, but really help them to make informed decisions that make a difference, really. And I think that's another reason why we need each other. We need mentoring, we need to support each other, we need to be positive. And, yeah, have that back to that if you like, that human factor, which I think surveys haven't, perhaps always had. Because the other thing I would say something I drill into our team, what we have to do is really communicate. And I think there's one thing to talk or write a report, but it's a different thing entirely sometimes, to really communicate so that they really get it. So they read a report and they go, Gosh, you've really listened to what I said. You've read me. You understand me my aspirations, but you've really nailed this building. Thank you. This is meaningful. That's really what we aim for, for example. So maybe we come onto it later on. But I'm a great believe in the people side as well as just understanding the
Marion Ellis 7:52
building, I think that's, um, I think that's really interesting, interesting. And I would agree, if there was a, you know, the future of residential surveying and where it's heading, it's certainly coming off the the group. I feel like we're in the tracks of churning out reports and doing them in a very standard way. Doesn't matter what levels you call it, and there are a few things for that. One, the way that we buy and sell homes is changing with the use of technology across the whole sector. You know, we talk about sellers packs from 2025 years ago, the technology is there now, and it's making a difference now. Exactly we've got AI in terms of valuation. So who knows where valuations but the key thing for me that I've always seen from a complaints and claims point of view is we can give people of this information. We can give them the report, but they don't know what to do with it, and that's where we as surveyors really add value. And yet so many surveyors do not speak to their clients, either because the structure of the business that they work in, or they just don't know know how to, and some of them have, you know, let's face it, never bought and sold a property. Never had to do a renovation and a bit of building work or extension with the kids and dogs and life and stuff that goes on for people. And sometimes it's quite a big ask, you know, to really understand customers in the position that they're in, but providing more, what you call it project work, I call it more consultancy advice, I think is certainly the way forward and and the way that and that's what people need. And I view that from a customer experience point of view, from a risk point of view, that's not to say that, you know your your standard survey structure doesn't have a place. It does, but it will change, because, you know, everybody can go on Tiktok and work out how to do a survey and how to do the do these things and and, you know, the quality is changing. We're seeing more more complaints. Um. Know, on defects and the quality of reports. So, so I certainly think that's the way forward, but it's a, it's a big ask, if you've never done that. But also, you know, and something I know you're quite, quite passionate about is, how do you actually talk to a client? You know, that sounds, sounds a bit, you know,
Mark Duckworth 10:21
I think developing food that's so interesting, Mary, because again, so I take the view that, let's say someone buying a fairly nice property doesn't have to be nice. Could be large, small, maybe whatever. But I think the job of the surveyor is to obviously, really understand the building, but again, really find ways of communicating. So I take the views to basic criteria. Number one, I really want to understand the client again. What are their aspirations? What are their criteria? What are they really looking to get out of it? So if I'm have some sort of framework of understanding, because I've talked to them, I've asked questions. Firstly, quite searching questions to find out what makes them tick, a little bit in terms of what the as I say, what they're looking for. And then I've done my pre survey research on this building, particularly context for me, that's a massively important subject, which I won't bore you with now, but I understand how that building is evolved and changed over time. I understand its materials, its construction, its form. So then when I go and look around it, and I do a thorough, you know, your what I call this, tingly senses are on full fault tilled. That means you're what you're seeing, you're smelling, you're tensing, you're touching this data. It's all going in, and it's building a picture and a profile of this building, so that, yes, people are paying for a technical analysis or report, but they're also trying to get a sense of what do you perceive this building is about? What is it? Where? As you say, Where are the risk profiles associated with this building? Things that might look innocuous, but in actual fact, really are quite serious unless some serious maintenance is done, for example. So once you've got that information based on having spoken to the client, what we like to do is, yeah, write a good a good, meaningful report, but then always give them the chance to say, look, come back to us, and let's put more flesh on the bones once you've digested what you've read. So what's happening is there is an exchange of what's in my head based on having looked at building for a number of years, and what I've analyzed in a more empirical sense, but also what I've sensed, what I've picked up, what I call the the signature of the building, or the signature of the of the builder, where you keep seeing things that have been done rather well. You know, all the miter joints are nice and crisp on, you know, just the quality of material. Or conversely, sometimes you keep finding things, oh, dear. Oh, I don't like that. So it gives you an impression what I'm doing is I'm conveying all of this information, and invariably, people are just drinking it in. And as you know, man, there's a really, really good reason for this. And this is another massive subject, maybe we'll come on to. I am firmly of the view that if surveyors learn basic, just very elementary levels of understanding with which actually comes from neuroscience, but EQ emotional intelligence. And it's premised on this, as you well know, because you taught me this when, because your home is everything, it's your safe place, it's your investment, it's where maybe your family are children, etc, etc. So it means a huge amount. And so that's linked to what we call the limbic part of the brain, which is the fight flight thing. So you touch my property, you touch me. So therefore, there's actually a positive aspect in as much that if you're conveying something about a building to someone who's investing anything half million, a million, whatever it is, they are super interested. And if you're credible and you're knowledgeable and you're and you've read and understood this person, you've got a real captive audience, and so therefore, if you don't just rely on the report, obviously it's important, but you actually think about, how am I going to communicate all of this knowledge to this person so they get it, so they really feel that they understand what you're saying, then I Think you're really offering real value. You're not just giving another vanilla report that any old surveyor can provide or get one off the internet or chat GBT to write one. You actually are being a human, talking to another human about something which is incredibly important to them, and that recognition, understanding of that dynamic I found, or this is what we think in our business, is incredibly important, and that's basically the essence of our strap line, which is providing technical competence with emotional intelligence. And that's what that really means, because we want to communicate and help people move. To dial in their understanding.
Marion Ellis 15:03
Oh, there's, there's so many long answer to your question, yeah, hey, okay, let's, let's unpack that a bit, because I think, I think this is really good learning, particularly for newer surveyors coming into, you know, into the profession. Because I think these are the things that you you need to learn earlier on in your in your career. I think for me, I learned more about customers and sort of tuning into their emotional needs through complaints and claims, and the work that I saw on the the other side, where it all went wrong, and I wish is the kind of thing that I'd been more aware of before, what you're and I'm glad you pick up on this. And this is something that's come up on the podcast in the past, of sometimes surveying is quite mindful. You know, when you go into to a property, you know, where we're trained like robots sometimes to, you know, we've got a routine of we walk up, you walk up to the path of the property. You're clocking the roof, the chimney, the this the that, you know, we're tuned into, that where we're looking, you say, spidey senses, which is, you know, that tingly feeling we're looking to, is it there? Is it not there? We're looking to prove it's not there, rather than than not, yeah, but it is very sensual in that we're using our senses, you know, when you walk into a property, you know, in terms of the temperature, the smell, you know, and as humans are, we haven't just got the five or six senses. We've got 1000s of senses we've no idea about because we're so developed as humans and and, but we don't use that and we don't exercise that muscle very much. And one of the things when I work with coaching clients, actually a little exercise for people is to notice on and hear on different levels, and an exercise next time you're in a coffee shop, for you or anyone listening, if you go in and just, you know, get your coffee and sit down and just listen, and what you'll hear and notice is you'll hear, you know, Someone come through the door, and you'll hear the music in the background. You know, the barista doing the, you know, fancy coffee, somebody talking in the corner. You'll start to notice the temperature of the, I think it's winter or warm, you know, the someone comes through the door. There might be a draft somewhere, and you might be sitting near the radiator. You'll notice the smell of the coffee and somebody's fancy chocolate over there and and even just taking a few minutes to notice and tune into those things makes you realize the you're not just in a coffee shop. I'm in a coffee you've got all these senses around you. And I think that's a, it's an exercise, and it's a it's a skill. But also when you're in a property and you're doing your inspection, just taking a moment, just take a breath and notice, you know, if you think about whether it's lived in or not, you know, the you know, talk about dampness, drafts, different things. It makes it harder when the property is occupied and there's kids and dogs running around and you're having to do your do your surveys, but that's where we need to really come back to knowing ourselves and the things that we can trust, and we can everything we do starts with our technical knowledge. Are we able to, you know, technically, do this job or not, but you've also then got to be able to trust your gut instinct and to know and follow your senses. You know, that doesn't look quite right. You know, should I go and have a look? Should I spend that bit longer ask those more questions? And it's a real exercise, but it's not something that anybody tells you about until you start some kind of personal development journey. But it can just help you tune in, you know, tune into the tone of voice of the vendor. You know, actually, a lot of them are really nervous and worried about you. You coming into their home, you know, same with clients asking questions, you know. So it's just that tuning, tuning in but if you've never done it before or never noticed, how would you know it makes all the difference.
Mark Duckworth 19:30
I so agree with you on this. I suppose I'm naturally a bit of a kinesthetic person in terms of sense, sensing things. And I think when I think back in my childhood, I grew up not on a farm, but I spent an enormous amount of time on that, on a on a relations farm, which had lots of old Coxwell barns. So I was such a nosy parker, and I think that was a good training for being a surveyor, actually. So I was sensing and building dens in well, I shouldn't have all that stuff. So I've always been very, very inquisitive. And. But again, as I've got interested in the subject of how people tick as well, you touch on a couple of really important things I want to mention, if I may. One is that the vendor is going to be nervous, and so they're in their limbic brain. They're they're on a slight on the edge. It can be. They vary, of course, and I think therefore, the skill to sort of help put them at ease is really important. And just just look at them in the eye, shake them hand, warm, smile, just say, I'm not here to take your house apart. I appreciate this is a bit intrusive. I really appreciate the time and you allow me to do this. Just some very, very simple things can really help there. But there's another thing as well, because I'm thinking of young surveyors, and we've all been there. I always used to think about what I used to call this shiny Sword of Damocles above our heads, metaphorically, with PI claim written on it. You will forget this wrong. I'm really and therefore that can induce a bit of anxiety. And let's face it, we've all been but well, I'm generalizing, perhaps guilty of a bit of defensing, defensive reporting, when really those, those anxiety levels in both a vendor and us as a surveyor, I think are potentially counterproductive. They're not going to help us really get this building and really, really absorb all of this information that we really need to and then decide what's really important in the hierarchy of issues, if there are issues to report, and then think how to report it in a way which isn't alarmist, but at the end, it's not leaving things unsaid that really do need to be said. So there's a real judgment, and there's lots of other skills, as you say, other than just technical knowledge that are needed to be a really good survey, I think in terms of residential, yeah,
Marion Ellis 21:48
you mentioned anxiety, the anxiety of the surveyor. And lots, lots of us experience imposter syndrome. You know, you can argue, argue the term of what imposter syndrome means, but in the context of, I don't feel very good enough, or I don't feel very competent enough, and they're going to find out and it and it, it comes through, you know, it's you get you always you'll get caught out. You know, because it's on your mind
Mark Duckworth 22:17
molecules, isn't it? People sense
Marion Ellis 22:21
of your skin and that. But that's why I say, the more you know yourself, better you know and understand your technical ability and how to use it, the better it will be. And it's okay to not know some stuff. You know you're not meant to be, you know, an encyclopedia. Your brain is there for processing. It's about knowing, knowing that you can trust yourself to find out the answer and to know and to know what to do. Can I, can I just ask you about you? Sort of mentioned your, you know, your childhood. How did you get into surveying? Because I was when I was looking at the details you'd sent over before. This, this call mark, you've got the alphabet after your name, the only in terms of letters, the only person I know who's got more is Larry russon. But how about your oh,
Mark Duckworth 23:13
gosh, okay, I try and keep this brief. So it was in much later in life. And so what? What happened briefly? And again, I want to not go on too much, but so I grew up in a I'm not saying it wide and idyllic childhood. It wasn't that idyllic, really. But the farming background, there's a lot of horses and tractors and farming implements. And as a young child, growing up in the 60s and 70s, it was just enthralling. There were sight, smells, sounds. It was just I was really impacted by over many, many years, really. So I convinced myself that farming was in my blood, that was my life calling. But you know what, Marion, if I'm now, look back and if I was really, really honest with myself deep down, it really wasn't, but I'd invested three years of formal education at agricultural colleges. I'd thrown myself into it from quite a young age in various ways. And what happened was, as I left college, even before then, I just had the most awful, terrible spate of personality clashes, getting sacked, making mistakes. It was just awful. We did not go well for me. And so what happened was, and I because my mother's, it was my mother's family who had this farm in Oxfordshire, and I took after that side, I thought, and I sadly didn't get on with my father that well, he was a lawyer and very, very different, really. So hence, a bit of a hybrid, really, but later in life, because I've been to all sorts of jobs trying to find my way in life, I've always been ambitious and driven, but I've I really struggled the truth be known. So after leaving a sales and marketing job, I. I think in my late 30s, I'd done reasonably well. I discovered that I could actually sell and communicate, much to my surprise. And I just thought, you know what I want to be? I want to have something credible. I want to be a professional that has real, credible knowledge. So I did a sabbatical for a year, which, because I was bit burnt out, came back. What on earth am I going to do? Ended up working for a conservation builder who was just not a learned man, but what he didn't know about older buildings wasn't worth knowing, really. So that was why I caught a lot. Not just taught. Was taught, and I always had a love of science. So I got interested in damp and timber and structural dynamics of buildings is particularly timber frame and so on and so forth. And I thought, so I started business with him that, sadly, didn't go too well. That's another story. And then I thought, Gosh, I need to. I need to train. I need to. This was not my thing, just whizzing around in a white van trying to. I was a massive imposter. Basically, I did a deal on some land, made some money, and I invested it, and in becoming a home inspector, which, as you will know, was very much focused upon defects in buildings. And I thought, here's my track. Finally to and I started to learn things like land law, for example. And absolutely loved it. I thought, Wow. I just find this really, really interesting. Amongst other things, it just satiated my desire for learning and knowledge of aspects of science and so on. Anyway. So I eventually joined Martin Luther Mortimer at the time, which was quite difficult. The business had gone through some very difficult times, so I had to have my head under the bonnet for some considerable time. Not Rick's qualified at this time to help get the business back on track, which we did. And then, you know, simply put my business. I'm sorry, my career just took off. It was very hard work, but it just, I just find myself getting into a zone, into a into a sort of a stream, where things started to make sense, and I was making sense to people, and they were enjoying what I was doing and appreciated what I did. I was a quite, as you probably gather, quite a passionate communication on things that I'm interested in, and I like helping people, and I found it was gelling, and I've gone from strength to strength, and I love it. And now I'm interested in empowering and helping other surveyors where I can, not least our own, our own team, really, because there's so many interesting things to to explore, as we touched on earlier on, really, I can see loads of opportunities in surveying, but I don't always have the bandwidth to get them all so. So that was back in 2000 and 345, when I got into this, into repairing old buildings. And then I had to find my way doing this training as a home inspector. And eventually, in 2010 joined Martin and Mortimer. And yeah, I've been through some thick and thin. We've, we've had some very serious ups and downs in that time with losing people. But I've, this is the other thing I would say, Marion, I've learned to just stick with it. Don't give up. Just press on. Go. Go. The bad times will pass, the more you go through. And as they say, you learn so much more from from difficult experiences. And I suppose now I look back and I've got so many threads of experience from different careers and different jobs I've done. And which is why, to bring this bit to conclusion, why I really believe in people. I really believe people should be empowered. Believed in that every everyone's got great abilities, if you can just dig the gold out of them and build a team. And especially in surveying, where most surveys, let's face it, are really passionate about what they do. They just want to be believed in. They want someone to support them. And there's a just great energy when you do that really, which is what I call chemistry. And when you get a good chemistry across a team of people, it's great to come to work, to come to work, you don't think, oh, no, not another day slog. So that's a again, another quite long answer, but it's some of the background. It takes.
Marion Ellis 29:21
It takes, it takes work, though, to to bring a team of people together. You know, that's, that's leadership. And I think a pattern that I see time and again without throughout surveying is people in charge because they've been there the longest or they've got the most technical experience. But being a good technical surveyors not being the same as a good people surveyor manager. They're different skill sets and and often, lots of people don't have any training or encouragement in how to manage people. I certainly didn't. I probably wasn't very good manager. I'm sure you, you learn along the way what you've you've talked about, though, and. I think will be really encouraging to those who come to surveying later in life. We see that a lot in residential I think, you know, from what you described, everything that brought you to today or to your surveying journey allowed you to do that. You wouldn't have been perhaps, sort of the same surveyor if you'd started when you were, you know, left school, you know? It's, it's, it's enabled you to be the this way you are today, and all of that life experience and the and the ups and downs, it is about resilience, you know, and that's helped you with the with the business and things going forward. So I think it's really important to have all of that, and certainly important lessons, I think for lots of surveyors out there, that,
Mark Duckworth 30:50
yeah, absolutely, yeah. Resilience is important running any business, as you say. But I suppose for me, partly my I've always been also interested in the subject of not just psychology per se, but, you know, the theory of Leadership and Motivation. I've always been fascinated by that. You know, what is it that moves people to achieve? And I've discovered this is, if I may just share what I've learned of late, which I think is fascinating. So neuroscience has discovered in the last 3040, years, since the advent of CT scanning, which basically means they've mapping the brain in ways that they've never been able to before. So you might think what the Earth has got to do with survey, well, actually, loads, honestly, is just phenomenal the opportunity. So to make the point, what they've discovered is, and again, this is pretty common knowledge, really, but if you like, look at the brain in very broad terms, two distinct aspects. There's many aspects, but two distinct ones. One is the, what we call the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain which regulates and exercises judgment and can say, let's just think about this a minute. Let me just not knee jerk here. Let's just calmly consider what I'm looking at or the situation I'm in, whether it's problem solving. However, the other part is the limbic brain, which we've all got. And this is the interesting thing. This is universal. Every human being on the planet has this same wiring. Doesn't matter about diversity, we can talk about that, for example, but fundamentally, everybody was wide the same nowadays. If the limbic brain is triggered, namely, we hit fight flight with adrenaline responses and other neurotransmitters, we're on edge. It means it shuts down the prefrontal cortex temporarily, where we're not able to absorb the information, the data coming in, because with tunnel vision ready to flee or defend ourselves, for example. Now that you know, people talk a lot about mental health and PSD, whatever it is, etc, and I think maybe that is an issue. But if we realize, if we just have this basic understanding, so when I'm dealing with a party wall Matt, or, like yesterday, I was doing a mediation with with a boundary match, when the garden and I was using every single skill in my book, and it was so amazing what I'm actually sharing, I actually use it, and it just works. It really does. So in this situation, I was able to calm people down by really listening and making them feel heard. They really knew that they had my attention and that the other person wasn't going to interrupt because I'd framed it properly. So so the limbic brain will get triggered and will drive people in this various states of anxiety or concern, and it's really apposite to buildings and homes and property. It will because it's linked. They're so closely linked, and if we as surveyors recognize that, hence why. You know, boundaries are so problematic because you're touching their you're impacting their limbic system. They are in real fights, like they are incensed, or they sort of principle all the all the other issues that come come out of that. But if we understand that and can start to use employ skills to address that, we can be so much more effective, and I would argue, more more professional, more certainly add more value. And I suppose I call it the chili flake principle, you don't need too many to otherwise you spoil the stew. Just a few chili flakes are enough. Just judicious use of a bit of EQ makes all the difference.
Marion Ellis 34:40
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I
Mark Duckworth 34:43
just hope, I just hope, yeah, surveying. I think surveying, dare I say, this, could really use this. I mean, gone are the days. I know this is a horrendous stereotype, which I remember. Well, you know, the local charter surveyor in his Volvo estate with. The with the Labrador in the back, and he turned up and has got, you know, the brass plate on the front of the office. You know, lovely, lovely images, in a way. But things have moved on, because we're, we are all people. And again, I come back to the same thing. People look to us as professionals to help them understand and make good decisions. And I think if we again, read them, read their building, really think about it. Think about how we respond. We help them, we inform them, we reduce our risk. Because, as you well know, Marin, that's where claims come from, because they don't like the way they've been treated. Often, it's not just the issue that, yeah, you know that someone's missed something. It's just the man of approach. So surveys need to have their own bedside manner equivalent. Yeah, I think that's what I've
Marion Ellis 35:52
learned. Yeah, yeah. I agree. I agree with that. And the, you know, the way that things were were done in the past, and we can all be very, you know, critical of the new generation, but just because we did things in the past one way, you know, now we know we do better, you know. And we've got to work with technology and people are different now compared to where they were, you know, many years ago. Yeah. So we've got to, you say, we've got to be, got to be tuned, tuned into that, yeah, so that, yeah, I that that all makes sense to me, but you've got to, you've got to learn and and exercise it. It's not something that comes naturally to to a lot of people and progressive, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, these days, you know, you can watch a TED talk on all sorts of different things, and, you know, younger people, younger next generation, will have more access to that. It's some of us who are sort of stuck in the middle, you know, who have the hangover the way that we've been treated and the way that we learned and have to do things different, probably find it, find it most hard. Do you think,
Mark Duckworth 37:07
though, Marion, you mentioned that and reminds me of the whole subject of CBD. So for example, I say to our team, fine, well, let me start with this. What I try to encourage people to do is the work that they enjoy doing, that they're good at. So
Marion Ellis 37:25
absolutely. Colleague, yeah, doesn't want
Mark Duckworth 37:27
to do building surveys. Another colleague just That's all he wants to do. That's fine. So with the subject of CPD, for example, I think find, find the course, find the actual tutor that you really gel with and so, because if you do, you all absorb so much more. I'll give you a quick example. I remember a number of years ago in London, I did some training on boundaries from a barrister, and I take the view that there's something special about being in proximity, in person, with a lecturer that or a teacher. And this barrister was just so good at communicating, and I absorbed it. It got imprinted on me, and I use his outline and his knowledge that from that training to this day with, with great effect, really. I mean, I don't cast myself as a boundary surveyor, but I, you know, I, you know, we will do a podcast with with the great and the good in that field. And I'm I realized that, gosh, what I was taught actually really does match up with with what these people are doing anyway. So, and that's because there was a there was an alignment, somehow, there was, I was passionate about the subject. He was a great teacher, and I just absorbed this information and as well, as opposed to, oh, I've got to fill my 20 hour or 30 hours or better, just get this done. That's just so wrong. We should be really passionate and learning constantly, in my opinion, because I just Well, the more I learn, the more I learn I don't what I don't know.
Marion Ellis 39:00
So there's a couple of couple of things there. If you've got 20 or 30 hours CPD to do, why not do on stuff you like and enjoy? It doesn't have to be torture, is the first thing. But when you were talking about, actually, when you're talking about your your career, and how you, you know, you things started to be successful. You really enjoyed it. What you were talking about is flow, you know, whether, where it was actually the, yeah, yeah, you know, to be all woo, woo and goat, whatever. But it's, you know, it's being in the in the flow, where everything feels right and you know you're right in terms of, you know, finding the CPD and the topics and, and I see this a lot with sort of those who are going through sort of ASOC training, a lot of them do not like valuation. Makes my heart bleed, but, you know, it, they don't like. It, they don't understand it, and I think that's a shame, but they're passionate about other things, and that's okay. You know, it's having an awareness of what goes on. But it comes back to that knowing yourself better. I think the problem is, when you're employed, or if you're in a certain environment, you don't get that fix of the stuff that you really like. And we can all do work that we don't like, and we do it because we need to get paid and pay the mortgages and all of those things. But if you don't get enough of that, filling your cup with the juicy, geeky conservation stuff or the party wall or the whatever it is, you know, we're and actually, I think for surveyors, this is a need, you know, we talk about Maslow's hierarchy of human needs, and, you know, we need the, you know, sleep, water and all those things. But I think for us as technical people and surveyors, we need that surveying technical fix in some way. And if you don't get it, you can be really, really unhappy, you know. And that's why finding the right place to work, you know, the right outlet is, is so important. One thing I wanted to task you mentioned about, you know, all the different letters after your name. You're an associate, R, I, C, S, yeah, tell me about your journey there.
Mark Duckworth 41:21
Okay, so, wow, it's that's interesting. So about 18 months, two years after joining the firm, then the original senior partner, who actually you've had on your podcast before, Stephen he stepped aside and became a consultant. He wanted to go off back to Cambridge to do a PhD in his Polish studies interest. And Michael Pemberton took the reins. Michael was an outstanding surveyor. He really was so, so highly regarded. So he and I worked really well together. And then back in 2013 he, at the age of 43 dropped down dead, just literally, in every sense it was just dreadful, left a young family behind, which is which is tragic. So literally, I remember the morning, about six o'clock, his wife rang me Mark Michael's well he was in a coma, I think at that point, take over the business. Now, that was it. That was it. I had to take over. I wasn't qualified with Ricks at the time. Some of the quality, some of my designations are from previous things I've done in agriculture and so on, farm management and so on. So it may look more impressive than it probably is in some ways, however. So there I am with this old, established Rick's practice that I'm suddenly Managing Director of effectively, and I've got to make it work. It was really difficult. Everyone did rally round, and we got through it. We were in a, still a bit of a difficult place at the time, financially, as I alluded to earlier on. So it was all to do, and I was then blessed by, I think, a charter a lady charter surveyor who said, Mark, look, the Aesop rich process has just changed, is slightly more streamlined and easier to administrate, and I had a lot of experience. By then. I'd been a damp surveyor, party wall survey for several years. I had some my home inspectors qualification, so I had all the points. So I got onto it real quick, because through absolute necessity, and with the help of John levers input, I think it was on a day's course was successful. Thank goodness. What a relief that was, because back in those days, I found slightly controversial to say, but I did sense a lot of snobbery. Of course, you're not qualified, course you're not Ricks. And I had it a lot, and it was made me feel really bad I'd remember it really. And I thought, well, actually, that's true, but I know my stuff. So, for example, on down timber, etc, I really knew my stuff. And in fact, that's interesting in itself, far more than most charter surveyors, because they used to deem it as well, just going to see down the down from down the road, when really, I used to say to them, no, actually, this is an incredibly important subject, and you need to know about it anyway. That's another subject. So, so that's how I and then since then, I've had several attempts, well, not attempts to I started to get onto my APC, but I've either got burnt out, or the pressure of work has been so unrelenting, actually. So I really need to do it. I need, I've signed up again to do the the senior practitioners route with leadership, which I think I could I've got some experience where that would be applicable. So I really need to just get on and get it done at some point. Although. I do want to make a shout out, if I may, to the association of building engineers, who I am chartered with. I'm a fellow of them, and I they're almost like the little guy, but they're not the big shot.
Marion Ellis 45:12
That's Cabe, isn't it? Cabe, they
Mark Duckworth 45:15
are really credible. They don't get much time in the sun, if I'm that's my perception, but they do produce really, really important good work, particularly on they've done a lot on fire safety since Grenfell. They do a lot on on the subject of retrofit and sustainability. They keep shouting about that, and quite rightly so, in an intelligent way, with real good, detailed articles on on technical matters. So, yeah, it's an interesting landscape. And I have to say, Marin, I'm going to be again, slightly controversial. I have been rocked by the by what's happened in the RICS in recent years, because I felt there's been, I'm going to say it a slight, just a tad of hubris in the mix, and I think there could be some real humility and self examination about really, how are we deceived? Yes, it's an august body, and I fully endorse and respect that fact that we've been around a long time, but I'm just being a bit honest with you. Now, I know this is going to go up, but I just That's my honest perception, and I just wish there was a bit more, as I say, appropriate. I'm not talking about sort of, you know, sackcloth and ashes, but just a bit of self introspection and in a proper, appropriate way. Because you see, these themes keep recurring on LinkedIn, different people have been members for many, many years, notable people who I respect a lot. And this, I also ought to pay tribute to you for your recent success, which is tremendous about the subscription for people who are non practicing, which I think was the case in point, which has been good to see that they have actually listened.
Marion Ellis 47:10
Yeah, yeah. And so firstly, I hear you. I am not RICS, but I'm a past given in council member. And I think your sentiment is others will absolutely resonate, and it's very hard to I think it's been very hard to be in our ICS member over the past few years. It's not just about being part of a professional membership body standards and regulation. It's part of our identity because we call ourselves charter surveyors or qualified surveyors, and so it's much more personal than perhaps. I think those involved in the organization really, really understood. It makes it very hard for things like, you know, I was running some free workshops and support to help more women become fellows, to get their fellowship. Why would you want to do that? You know, and it's made me question, why do I do Why am I a surveyor? Am I a surveyor? No, I'm always on that journey. You know, what does it mean to be an RICS member and all of those things. But I think for me, the place that I've got to is it comes back to how was the RICS started, or how any of these organizations started, and it's a spirit of making a difference within the property in the built, built environment. And you you almost sort of come back to those core values, and does that align with the work that you do and the way you want to to be? There's a, yeah, there's a practical side of, do I need the qualification to do the the work that we do? We don't all need to do that, you know? So it's, it's a really difficult, difficult journey. And the the situation with the concessions was that, yes, they've reviewed and made a change, they listened to those that that raised it, and they've, they've, I think the good news is, one, they've reviewed it, but two, they will continue to going forward and to learn more. And that's that's what we want to hear, is that you know that you don't have to wait for some of us to kick off or post on social media, to act, but say, We want to hear that you you hear us, and that you're making changes and but we also understand that it's an organization and a business, you know, and decisions have to be, have to be made, but it's, I think sometimes with You know, it's complex, but with organizations like that, it's a membership body, it's a standards and regulation regulatory function, but it's also a business as well. And how do you manage, manage those things? But you know, as I say, you come back to those core values, and what does it mean to you know. To make a difference and and in terms of your zooming back to your your qualification, you know, you don't need to be chartered. You know, sometimes it's just the next thing that you, that you do. But I think many, yeah, many, many who are associate members now, Mark, I think will be really encouraged by the sex success that you've had. You know what you're able to do, and you know with your business,
Mark Duckworth 50:30
love the idea of inspiring people, young, younger surveyors. I really do, because it's interesting that I have a colleague who's extremely able. He's got first class honors degree in Building Surveying. He's not got any Wix accreditation. But if I'm very honest, he's probably one of the most able surveyors I've ever met, relatively speaking, and that's just as I honestly perceive it to be. He's very, very competent and understands detail, understands a whole has got a whole array. So having said that, I do absolutely endorse the RICS commitment to attainment and standard, to have a level playing field, that it does mean something to be a charter surveyor. I really, really acknowledge that. However, there's also what I call the PowerPoint principle. So the PowerPoint principle is this, that sometimes if you, if you're doing a presentation, you're relying on these fancy graphics to somehow be wow and engage people. But this is what people don't realize, that doesn't engage anybody. It's the person. It's it's what comes out of the pores of someone's skin that you, you pick up on it's back to communication. You know, you, we all know about the 7% this is the words another 30 odd percent is tone and the Western body language and so on. And I think the principle is that we as surveyors need to have our own integrity, I guess, to commit to wanting to deliver really what is not just credible, cogent, clear information, but to adhere to these really high standards. So there's a tension, I suppose, yes, it's a business, it's a regulatory body, it's a lobbying body to government, which is in, which is, which is, which is good. It serves many, many really good purposes. But I guess, like us all, we just need to have some self awareness. We can all improve, we can all change, and we can all hopefully have a character which is based on, amongst other things, yes, tenacity, strength, but the little bit of humility, I think is quite an attractive
Marion Ellis 52:44
ingredient in the mix. Yeah, I did a podcast with Larry russon a little while ago. Mentioned Larry earlier on, and, you know, we talked about regulation, you know? And he said it starts with self you know, it starts with self regulation and knowing your boundaries, trusting you getting taken all of, all of, all of those things you can have all the rules in the world, and we just can just ignore them. But it comes back to your motivation, why you're a surveyor, why you do the do the things that you do, the things that you're interested in. One thing I wanted to ask you about, you talked about burnout, and I think that's something that lots of us experience. How do you obviously, it sounds like you've experienced that in different guises over the years. How do you manage that? Or what advice or would you give to people, learnings, insights? Wow. Good
Mark Duckworth 53:40
question, good question. Mary, just briefly my own experience of burnout. Was it two, three years ago? I realized I've sensed it was getting quite bad. I wasn't quite over the over the precipice where I couldn't function at all. So I spoke to my staff and said, I'm feeling I need to take some time out. And they were so kind and gracious. And I think it was about two and a half three months, I just stopped. I just didn't do anything. I took my foot right off every pedal. I didn't look at any dial on any dashboard. I didn't do anything. However, there was a mistake that was a huge mistake, because we really suffered financially. It was an i abdicated. I didn't delegate properly. I didn't sort of set in motion, sufficiently robust management procedures and contingencies. This is just my own personal experience, so whilst it was necessary, I pulled back and stopped. But if I go back now, that was a major mistake I've made, and I wouldn't never do that again. I would make sure that the business was set up by me. Taking much more responsibility, not just sort of literally stopping the car middle of the motorway, walking away, not getting back in, which is what I did really well, I guess,
Marion Ellis 55:08
I guess sometimes, though, Mark, think things like that happened, you know, what? I think, what you're you're talking about in terms of business sense, is what we call business continuity, you know, yeah, whether, whether the boss needs time off to abdicate, you know, whether the it goes down, you know, the building floods. You know, it's, how does the business continue when all of these different things happen? And that comes down to planning. It comes down to people. You can't plan for every eventuality, but you can create an environment where somebody can step in, you know, just like you had the phone call many years ago when your your colleague passed away, you know, yes, you'll have taken time out, but your colleagues did step in, you know. So there's there's it things, there's planning, there's work, there's also, also people, you know, and business continuity is something I think people don't, don't fully understand, but I'm glad you were able to take the time that you you need to, whilst it might have been hard, you've just demonstrated over the last hour that you've got the resilience to build that back up again.
Mark Duckworth 56:17
Yes, absolutely. And, and I think you you touched on a really important point man, like property maintenance, isn't it? Is prevention is far better than cure. So, um, so, for example, we have a Monday team meeting, and part of that is just, how are you, you know, what? How was your weekend? You know, really hearing. And what I believe in is building a culture which where you improve the safety level, where people are able to say things which are maybe not in the nest flow, or just upfront and and just feel safe enough to say, well, actually, I've got a problem. Actually, I've got, you know, home life is difficult at the moment. And you know where we we do provide, we do flex time, for example, we've all got families. Most of us have so so it's hopefully engendering a culture which is going to prevent that from happening. Because the candid truth is, I have so many don't want to sort of blow trumpets, but the truth is, we have so many referrals, and you really don't want to turn them away, especially if they're maybe a good top end lawyer or good contact. You don't want to diminish the golden goose, as it were. And you tend to sort of take on, or I do take on too much work, and I take too long to get reports out, and that brings an ongoing stress level, which is difficult, really. Plus, I take responsibility, because I take the view that if you're a leader, you're at the bottom, you're supporting everyone else, you're not at the top of some big cheese with you know, I that's that mindset I so I do take, try to take responsibility for other people and make sure that they're okay. But of course, every good leader, which is, I'm finding it hard to learn this lesson. Needs to take care of themselves. Your own self care is so important. I think you, you taught me this, man, I'm one of your courses, and it's slowly getting through. I think the
Marion Ellis 58:18
thing is, about the one job we all have in life is to look after ourselves. We look after everybody else, you know. We talk about self care and work life balance, but our one job is to make sure that we function and function to the best of our ability. And we always put that to the to the bottom of the pile, you know. And that's the yeah and you talked about, and I think this will resonate with lots of, lots of listeners, the turning away work when it gets busy. Oh, sorry, the fear of really is what you, I think you're you're saying is that yeah, the works there. Don't say no. But when we have, when we're driven by fear, we don't always make the most logical decisions. You know, we're not able to. It's a plan, and whereas, if we can turn that into more of a positive, oh, it's good that work is coming in, but let's make sure it's the right work. Let's make sure it's sustainable, that we could continue to get the work, that anxiety level just drops a notch or two, you know, and that's the thing that then helps with, you know, managing that self care, that that burnout and things. But I think it's easier said than done, you know, let's, let's face it, but I that's something I hear a lot.
Mark Duckworth 59:37
It is, it is, it's, again, it's all balance, isn't it? Really? I remember someone saying balance is the key to life. Really, yeah, we should get into where we need each other. I think really, where there's really good quality communication and honest, emotional honesty, as well as just literal honesty, if you like, is really necessary. Own empowerment, really, because we're all humans, aren't we? Really? Yeah,
Marion Ellis 1:00:02
and that's the thing you know, you always talk about. You know, when we talk, we always end up talking about people, because surveying is about people at the end of the day. And we we forget that mark. I just wanted to ask you, before we finish up, you about your work as a councilor, what was that? That was sort of 2003 four. District councilor, yeah. District councilor, yeah, that
Mark Duckworth 1:00:32
was interesting. Yeah.
Marion Ellis 1:00:34
Tell us a bit more about about that.
Mark Duckworth 1:00:38
Oh, wow. So I've always been interested in politics and 2003 Yes, I stood for although, at the time, was living in Ely, but five miles away is the town of Soham, which back in that at that time, it was literally eight months after the terrible murders that took place. There two school girls tragically were murdered, as we as you probably remember. So the whole town was in complete disarray. I mean, it was really, it's a 10,000 population at the time, quite close knit. Everyone knew each other, and everyone was in. It was just occluded. It's almost like this black sack had been put over the whole place. So I got elected. And I remember saying, might be green as a grass, but I'm keen as mustard. And I spent the first four years trying to say, where are these levers of power? You know, I want to do something. And I learned, one of the lessons I learned was what I came to term currency dealing, namely, people would carry up to each other. And I'll you know that, I'll get you in the local paper if you can do this. It was, it wasn't sort of what I thought it should be, in some ways. Again, I'm hugely generalizing. And then First Four Years went past, and then after the first second term, I got elected again, and literally, two weeks in, I was walking the high street of this town, so and I just had a moment Marion. I had a spontaneous, almost like Damascene moment, when this indignation came over me because there's a shop shutting and being boarded up, and the whole place was a little bit, still a bit struggling. And I thought, This isn't good enough. Something needs to happen. This plea. Place needs a good, strong 20 year strategic vision, saying sunny uplands this way. I just felt very strongly anyway, to cut to the chase. I very shortly after that, I met the chief executive of the Council on a Saturday morning in Edie market, and because I'd share this with him, and he said, Oh, Mark, I've got some money for you to do a master plan. And I said, What's that? So I learned that master planning is, you know, you look at all the resources and development and different attributes of an area, put it together with a coherent plan for the future so that has a direction of travel which benefits as many people as possible. And it's one of the most fascinating things I've ever done. I started to contact all sorts of disparate stakeholders, the local entrepreneurs, of whom they were quite a lot in so my fellow counselors, all sorts of other groups, and I had such a passion and enthusiasm, it just came over. The pores my skin was Mark's all about this again. But anywhere that would listen, I would tell them about it. But I had this. I simply did a basic SWOT analysis, looking at this place which had always perhaps seen itself in the shadow of of Ely being the Cathedral City. And I actually saw had so many attributes to this place for strategic reasons, all sorts of reasons, including a disused train station and lots of Greenland, because back in the those days, I even envisaged, I said, Well, I can envisage, in the future, people are not want to go and get in their cars every day. They'll want to do two or three days at home. Then they'll want to, you know, get the train to Cambridge or London, for example. And sure enough, that's actually happened. And likewise, the train station was opened, and it's been, it's been quite something, ready to see a community really change and come to a different place altogether, has to be said. We are in the what we call the Cambridge sub region, which is an incredibly buoyant part of the country to be in, for reasons that are probably obvious with the what's happened in Cambridge has been a phenomenal over 4050, years or more, a marriage between the university and the business community, where they have produced so many startups with brilliant people producing having brilliant ideas. Venture capital. Here's your startup, here's the science part, here's your. Aim have some shares. Off you go. Some of those have gone from acorns to oaks in most remarkable fashion. And of course, as a result of that, it's just sucked in 1000s of bright young things. You, on the whole, can't afford to live in Cambridge, this bit like on a par with with London, really. So they spill out into the sub region. And as a result, we've benefited as surveyors, especially, along with lots of other businesses. So it's a good place to be, and it's got a great future, really. But that was that, going back to your question Marin as a councilor, that was about, what does the community really need? And that for me, with my big picture mindset, as you can probably gather, I'm a visionary solo person. I'm not going one for the all the details all the time and again this, people were hurting. They needed something to someone to believe in them. And I remember one chap saying, Well, you don't even live in Soham, I said I don't, but I'm your advocate. If I wasn't a surveyor, I would probably like to have been a barrister, because I just love, you know, putting a really strong case. And that's another thing I did as a councilor. I was, in some ways to my shame, because I actually overturned and full council planning meeting several applications which had been put forward for recommendation by professionally qualified town planners. But if I if a constituent had come to me and thought was wrong, and I thought they had a case, I would absolutely put a case together and go into flights of oratory in the in the council chamber, and we managed to convince the planning committee several times to overturn the decision, which, again, is another interesting lesson in terms of the power of persuasiveness. If you have a if you believe in something, and you're able to articulate that and frame it in a certain way, it can be quite effective and powerful, really. So that was a really interesting time. But, yeah, sorry, I'm saying, Yeah,
Marion Ellis 1:07:07
well, I was gonna say the it's interesting actually, how transferable our skills are in that, you know, some of the things you've talked about with your business of actually, some, you know, some awful things happening, but you've been able to look at the landscape, look at the facts, look at the the information you've got, and then build something, build something out of it. But that's the kind of work that you were doing at, you know, as a as a councilor. I mean, that was a dreadful time for for I mean, gosh, we all remember in the papers and very alive for lots of us, but you know that, how do you turn things around? And isn't just the yes, it's having a plan and a vision, but it's taking people along the way with you, which must have been quite hard with, with community surveyors of counselors, and get involved in in things. And it's like, you know, you're using your surveying skills, whether you're qualified or not, you're using those skills in a different, different context, which is interesting. It's
Mark Duckworth 1:08:12
interesting again, it touches on another point we mentioned earlier, Marion, where do find people see professionals in a certain light. There's still a bit of a healthy regard, really, if you do know your stuff, and if you do have some, if you do have developed your personal skills, you really are in quite a key position to influence, hopefully, obviously, for the for the good Absolutely, therefore, but, yeah, not to be underestimated, really. And that's in some ways, dare I say it's quite flattering really, when you know people actually sort of hanging on your every word because it means something to them. And that's where I think there's a huge responsibility to again, communicate with with a sense of balance and proportion. In a way, it's not, again, it's lacking dispute resolution I get involved with it's not just having all the facts and all the technical knowledge, for example, is how you actually deal with those, how you manage those facts, or those pieces of information in a way that's not going to just cause distress or, I mean, you know, if you've discovered dry rot and you have to say, you know, you can say, Well, I'm sorry, but the house has got cancer basically, you know, and that's pretty unintelligent way of communicating something. I'm always mindful of conveying things in a way which are clear and honest, but, but have respect for them as people as well, really, because it's their home and home, and there's that sort of yeah is,
Marion Ellis 1:09:50
but that's why, that's why that conversation at the start is so important in terms of understanding the context you know of what. Going on in their lives. And you know, for people buying properties, you know how long you get questions that people don't ask is, you know how long you're going to live there, what's your budget? You know, are you expecting this to be all all great, or are you quite worried? You know, and understanding that context is is so important at the start, because it can help you deliver the news later. Yeah, Mark, it's been Mark, Mark, it's been a pleasure to speak to you today. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to take a look at the show notes. Follow up on any of the links and resources. You can also find more training webinars and workshops for surveyors by visiting my website at WWW dot love surveying.com and if you found this helpful, you can show your support by recommending the podcast to others, leaving a review or simply buying me a coffee. I'll see you next time you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
