Emma Fletcher 0:00
No, they're section 106, houses. They should be open to anybody, and these homes ended up going to all sorts of people. Yet the people who'd grown up in that village were basically being forced to move inland, still expected to be working in the pubs and the cafes for the tourist industry, but yet, the bus route didn't even run to those rural villages, so they were being sort of placed into fuel poverty, stuck in the middle of nowhere, and that, to me, just felt fundamentally wrong. That's when I started thinking, I think there's a better way of doing this. How can we break this cycle? What wedge could I form that stopped the section 106 housing going out too far and wide, and that's when I discovered Community Land Trust. Welcome
Marion Ellis 0:39
to the surveyor hub Podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do. I'm Marion Ellis, and today on the podcast, I'm chatting to Emma Fletcher, low carbon housing director at octopus energy. Emma's also the current chair of the RICS residential professional group. Panel. In this podcast, we talk about Emma's rather varied career when it comes to surveying, but also what it means to take the opportunity do the hard work and ultimately turn your passions into a career. Good, right? Let's crack on with welcome you to the podcast, Emma. Thank you. Sorry it's
Unknown Speaker 1:20
taken so long there.
Marion Ellis 1:23
Yeah, yoga, your hair. I'm faffing about with this, that and the other. We finally got together because I know it's been a bit of a juggle getting us both together, but a pleasure to have you here. I'd like to start by talking to you about your current role as low low carbon director. Is that right? Log carbon homes director should have read it. I'm doing a podcast. Should have read my guess. Just tell me a bit more about about that, because that's is that quite an unusual role for a surveyor to have?
Emma Fletcher 1:52
Yeah. I mean, it's safe to say that in octopus, we just have titles, no real job descriptions. They call it the dry stone wall. So you come in, and they bring in good people, and then you find your place and space within, within the team, the wider octopus team. It's not a job I applied for. Very surprisingly, it was the community project I'd done in my village, not the day job, but as a volunteer that was was noticed by Greg Jackson. He invited me in to talk about it. And I'm guess I had the right skill set at the right time, and they were looking to target house builders and housing associations, which was sort of my background. So I guess it was a role that was was created for me. Is it a role I'd have applied for probably never, ever in a million years? And is it role I make my own? Yes, it is every day.
Marion Ellis 2:46
So that's fascinating. So there's no job description. You're basically motivated to do the things that you think are important. How it works? Well, I
Emma Fletcher 2:59
mean, we have a loose team structure. So the one thing we're really keen on is promoting zero bills. So we've got a really cool, cool technology that can optimize solar batteries and air source heat pumps and on brand new homes. That means we can eradicate bills for 10 years. So we know we can do that, and it's just a matter of convincing development industry that they should be taking this up. But more excitingly, probably and more opportunities in the retrofit market. So we're working really hard to make zero bills work on deep dive retrofits. And then, you know, a home can also be a castle or a historic home. So doing some work on decarbonizing historic buildings is really exciting. And then looking at historic homes that are also tourist venues, you know, looking at the wider estate as well. What they need to do, everything from decarbonizing barley production because brewers want to make zero carbon beer or or you've got visitors and you need car chargers, so it sort of spans a lot wider and also draws in our generation team as well and and increasingly looking at community scale projects, which is sort of like very close to my heart, I want
Marion Ellis 4:07
to ask you about your community project, but I'll come back to that because I've got some questions first. And I come at this from a just not myself, but I know there are some genuine listeners here who will have no idea what some of this is. That's how I like to con myself into thinking that when you talk about carbon and decarbonizing, what do you mean? For some of us who don't work in that sector or have missed the memo, what do you what do you mean? So
Emma Fletcher 4:39
there's many different meanings. You are totally correct. But in the octopus world, it's about basically electrification and stock burning fossil fuels that is our primary driver. Yes, there's loads of things you can do on fabric of buildings, but that's not in our remit. At the end of the day, we're just an. Electricity provider or a tariff provider. But similarly, also, in the last two years, we've been the largest installer of green technology onto homes. And when I mean that, I mean solar panels and batteries or air source heat pumps, smart meters and possibly a bit of eco for insulation, but not the whole house fabric. So it's literally stop burning fossil fuels and start using electricity that's been green generated,
Marion Ellis 5:28
so finding different ways of delivering the energy that we need. And I guess that's quite innovative then, because you've got to experiment and explore. And you talked about barley production somewhere, and it's always looking at how far down the line, do you go to make those changes and the impact it and positives, hopefully they will then have, yeah, I mean,
Emma Fletcher 5:48
electrification is going to have to come across every industry, and it's how do you achieve that? And, you know, even down to things like developers on site, normally they start with a generator on site. You know that is also deemed to be burning a fossil fuel. So you know there's going to be some huge changes across the property industry that are going to have to be made, be it from the land and agricultural side all the way through to actually just starting building on any site, anywhere across the UK. And
Marion Ellis 6:18
how receptive do you find the surveying community to to all of these changes and innovation?
Emma Fletcher 6:25
So I'm going to say, on the whole, inquisitive, I think is a good i think is a good word. I think there's a lot of inquisitive people, but there's also a lot of people who are a bit scared about it, scared of asking stupid questions, scared that they're a bit late to the to the journey. And ironically, people aren't late. They're still in the very early stages. So one of the things we're really keen to be doing, and with other members of the surveying community, is actually having, we're having a breakfast meeting where, you know, no stupid questions are stupid. Do you know what I mean? Come and ask. You know, if you didn't really understand how solar panels work, come and ask us, because to be honest with you, I've learned so much in 18 months, but I've also learned from having solar panels and battery on my own home and and I think part of my role is translating the really clever stuff we do here at octopus into what I would call layman's terms, and ensuring that surveyors really do understand it. We've hosted some surveyor groups from the big surveying companies here in London our head office. And I genuinely think we've got to help people understand better what this means, both for themselves, personally, and for their for their clients as well.
Marion Ellis 7:38
And I think with what I find with surveyors is, we're very logical, you know, very logical, very methodical. We get to see the consequences of things and, and I guess a lot of us, it's quite a big leap of faith and a big gap. And I guess what you're doing is, is closing that gap between, you know, surveyor on a wet Tuesday and Margate, which I always talk about, and you know, all these things that are going on centrally and globally. And you know, it's, it's bridging that gap and making it relatable, easily digestible. And I guess that's where, you know, case studies, actually talking to people, building that trust, makes a huge difference, doesn't it? Yeah,
Emma Fletcher 8:19
totally. And no one wants to have the mini disc moment. I mean, I think my brother in laws, who worked in the music industry, the only person who invested in a mini disc player. And I think from surveyors point of view, it's like, when does the technology going to stop evolving? When do you get on and actually buy something and commit and and the honest answer is, things will be improving all the time. So, you know, you don't think about it with a gas boiler. You don't think I'm going to wait another two years until a slightly more efficient gas boiler comes up. You just buy another gas boiler. So I think you know it's getting people to commit, knowing full well that maybe in three or four years time, the technology may have moved on, but at the same time, much like a gas boiler, you are going to have to replace this technology in maybe 15 years time, and then you just get the next best thing at that moment in time. Waiting for the right moment. There is never going to be a right moment. You know, you have to make a decision and go with it, but acknowledge that technology is going to move very rapidly in this space.
Marion Ellis 9:18
Yeah, I think it's as survey as we like, certainty and to feel comfortable, and that helps us feel confident in our job, but approaching it, knowing it will constantly be changing, is the way forward. You know, because tech innovation, all those things change, rules, regulations, standards, all of that change, but you can only know what you know right now and do the best job that you you can based on the information that you've you've got. And that's okay, and that's all anybody really expects from you. I suppose the challenges then come, you know, as surveyors thinking now, on the home survey side, we've done valuation, we're thinking about future proofing, you know. And what might be coming down the down the line, and with our clients wanting guarantees from us effectively or that certainty, it's quite it's quite hard, but it's just being clear, I think, isn't it?
Emma Fletcher 10:12
Yeah, and maybe being able to spell out the steps. So one of the things I'm quite keen on is a funeral plan for your boiler. You know if, if we are not meant to be installing new gas boilers, maybe you know after 2035, who knows if there's going to be a ban or not, but, but actually knowing you know what the plan might be If your boiler does go wrong, or knowing what your plan is if you are Re Roofing, just to actually have a plan. What you could do may not be what you actually do, but just having a sort of a basic plan with some timing and some figures sort of against it, because you can start to make a judgment call, then, you know, I'm next, you know, refurbishing one room. I can do something at that point in time, or if it's a big commercial unit, when your next, you know the tenancy comes up, you can put some more cladding, or whatever it happens to be. I think you can make sensible assumptions about what you could do when, even if it's not what you actually go and do in the end, I just think it gives people a peace of mind that they've at least got a bit of a plan
Marion Ellis 11:22
it takes the fear out of a lot of it, because as you're exploring those different options, you're educating yourself and seeing what's possible. And I've got two thoughts there. One, it reminds me of small businesses coming up with a business continuity plan. You know, if the phone lines go down or the car breaks down, you know, what's the plan? What do you do? But also maybe think about my kitchen. I've got an electric range, and I've been planning for that range, that cooker, to die for a very long time, and it will not die. Like six months ago, I came home, my fridge died, and I had to get a new, new fridge. But the cooker won't, cooker won't die. So you're looking like different options, coming up with, coming up with, with plans, one day I'll get a new, new electric cooker. So yes, so I imagine there's not many survey you the only surveyor octopus.
Emma Fletcher 12:19
I'm not going to say I am. There's 8000 of us out there in the world, spread across 18 countries, so I don't think I can genuinely say I'm the only surveyor. But on the odd occasion where people have messaged in as customers, saying, Look, one example is in Norfolk, a surveyor messaging in Norfolk saying, If hosting event, could anybody at octopus speak to this conference, and it found its way to me. So I think I'm quite proudly a surveyor within octopus. So you know, if I'm able to help, I always will do but I think there's quite a lot of people like me, and I think increasingly so who, yes, you may be a sole practitioner as a surveyor, and you feel like you're a little bit isolated, but I think there's a lot more of us in maybe now, non traditional settings, for surveyors who who also similarly feel maybe a little isolated or bit on their own. Do you know what I mean in terms of you just don't have colleagues around, whereas, when I was in a big practice, you know, estates Gazette would come in hard copy, and we'd share it around the office and talk about it. There isn't anybody to do that with in the office here, in the same sort of way as it used to be when I was in a surveying firm.
Marion Ellis 13:30
I think that's so so true, and that's something that I come across in the surveyor hub, or messages that I get on on LinkedIn, is surveyors who are the only one in their the business, in their organization, it's some left wheel, left wing, left wing, left field kind of, kind of business, and they're the only one, and they do feel isolated. And I think it's something that many of us feel in our in our work, and when you're the you know, can you just rock up to Norfolk and deliver a presentation on something or other. You know, there's a level of expectation that, as a surveyor, you know everything, and yet you might feel quite, quite isolated. So how do you how do you reach out to other surveyors? I mean, I know you're part of the residential PGP, and we'll, we'll talk about that as well. But how do you feel connected to surveyors? So obviously,
Emma Fletcher 14:18
big up to yourself. I've done, I've had some really interesting meetups and conversations with, in particular, female surveyors. You know, I'm always very happy to meet up because, actually, yes, we talk a little bit about ourselves, but actually, you know, there's stuff I can impart on to surveyors. You know, again, being able to ask the stupid questions, or I've always wanted to know about energy, or how can you help clients with solar panels and and for me, I get a lot back because I'm thinking, well, this is real life problems that we should be bringing back into octopus to go and address. So I don't think there's ever a bad conversation, but I really do think as surveyors, we're really good, in particular, face to face and. Catching up. And, you know, I think actually being available for those sort of chance moments, cups of tea, getting together, I think are really important. I think surveys on the whole, I don't speak for everybody, but we're quite sociable beasts, and we do like catching up with other people, chewing the fat. There's always a bit of information or a nugget or a gem of information that another surveyor knows, or an article they've read, because there's just so much information out there. So you can always glean something you didn't know from a talk with another surveyor. I've never had a bad conversation with another surveyor, if you know what I mean.
Marion Ellis 15:38
Well, you have been in the surveyor hub, which I appreciate. Actually, you know, given your role on the PGP, I appreciate you being there, but we have some feisty conversations sometimes in the in the surveyor hub, but you're right. Face to face is so important, but you've got to put yourself out there and make the effort to meet other people, whether you other surveyors or other people, whether you work in a big organization or not, and that's something that I have to force myself to do, because it just becomes too hard to do by the time I'm, you know, juggling the kids and doing this, that and the other, you know, it sort of comes down to the bottom of the list, and yet it's so important to have that, have that connection with them, with others.
Emma Fletcher 16:19
I totally agree. It's just, it's kind of grounds you again, makes you a bit more human, yeah,
Marion Ellis 16:27
yeah, yeah. It's really good. Does let me ask you about this? You mentioned this community project a bit earlier. Tell me about that.
Emma Fletcher 16:38
Okay, so it starts with my first maternity leap, where I decided that my village was aging, and so I set up a community land trust and roll the clock forward. Built some homes to the village, with others who I persuaded to come and join my community land trust in the village. And then after we built the homes, we built eight homes, two bungalows, and the rest were houses. About two years later, I was like, what else can I be doing with this community company? As I said previously, not the day job, but I'm kind of one of these people that gets a bit itchy and likes to trial things and and actually being on oil, I could see was going to be a problem, and that was through stuff I'd learned in the workplace, working with house builders, working in land property, etc. I knew that actually, this transition was going to be really challenging, and that was eight years ago. So I started looking around. I listened to a podcast about the island of egg in Scotland, and a chap who was an engineer, he retired to egg and took the island of the power supply to the to the mainland with wind, solar and wave technology. And so I thought, you know, what, if we treat every settlement like an island, we treat our village like in Ireland, what could we do in terms of some sort of district heat network? Did some research on Denmark and Sweden, a few other places and, and I think this is where survey is really well placed, because we, you know, we don't do, like, a little bit of research out there and finding other examples and, and so, yeah, so heating swath and prior was really born. And roll the clock forward now eight years we're, I think, one of the first, if not the first, rural district heat network in the country. We run off ground source boreholes in winter, industrial air source in the summer, and we have a private water solar farm and and basically on the edge of the village, we generate water at 68 to 70 degrees, and that water goes through pipes, through the village and into people's homes. And it means it can work with the technology works with every single home, regardless of how old it is in the village or its fabric. And it means that you stop burning oil, basically.
Marion Ellis 18:42
So this is why I call thinking big Emma. You know, just setting up a community land trust. What is that?
Emma Fletcher 18:53
Okay, so it's, it's a community owned company, but it effectively, it's a company, for anybody out there who's not got a small business. It's effectively, it's a small company owned by directors. In our instance, who live in the village. Doesn't have to be for Community Land Trust. We are protected as volunteers of directors. There are lots of different versions of community land trusts out there, but we're registered at Companies House. We have to do annual accounts, so like, I say, a normal a normal company, but our remit was to deliver homes to the village and at a discounted to open market rent to ensure that people could stay living in our village. And we have a whole set of criteria about how your connections to the village happen. And we have eight homes, and the first eight homes went out to the market, 26 different households of varying sizes applied, and 25 of them pretty much all qualified. So yeah, it's, it's, it was set up to deliver homes for people who really need it. My biggest regret is we didn't really. Understand the need, even in a small village of 300 homes, that's
Marion Ellis 20:04
a big thing to do. This is not just, you know, getting a new park bench or sorting out, you know, bus times or, you know, this has got a big thing. Where does that? Where did that come from? And I'm thinking about, you know, I can, I can sort of understand your, your motivations in terms of energy and, you know, the sustainability and all of that, but that's a big thing to do. When do you and on maternity leave as well, and I was thinking big, you know, how do you, how do you get that energy and motivation to go and do that? Are you just naturally? I mean, I'm
Emma Fletcher 20:39
not sure whether we're allowed to swear by this podcast, but the motivation they only can normally comes from being really pissed off, if I'm entirely honest with you, that's what I was after. Yeah, that's where the motivation comes. I you know it happened because up on a job. I had a job up in for work up in Norfolk, and we were building some section 106 housing as part of this development site. And we wanted them to go to local people. We desperately wanted to go. We've been working with the parish council, and we wanted them to go to local people, because they're the people that work in the cafes and the bars on the on this Norfolk coast, coastal, large village. And basically the council turned around to us and said, No, they're section 106, houses. They should be open to anybody. And these homes ended up going to all sorts of people from all around the country. Yet the people who grown up in that village were basically being forced to move inland, away from the coast where they grew up, still expected to be working in the pubs and the cafes for the tourist industry, primarily. But yet the bus route didn't even run to those rural villages, so they were being sort of placed into fuel poverty, stuck in the middle of nowhere, and being ousted out of a place they grew up. And that, to me, just felt fundamentally wrong, and I thought there has to be another way. And that's when I started thinking, You know what, I think there's a better way of doing this. How can we break this cycle? What wedge could I form that stopped the section 106, housing going out too far and wide. And that's when I discovered community land trust. And so yeah, for a point of being annoyed and motivated, and similarly, with the oil industry, you know, if anybody's ever been on oil, you run out of oil, you end up pleading with the oil company to deliver oil when you run out, it's just yeah, and, and to be fair, and badly, for about the first, you know, 10 years of my 1015, years my life, I always thought everybody else could see these problems. And dare I say it, there was a man out there that could fix these problems, and why weren't they doing it? And then I just had this realization on maternity leave, you know what? I've got a responsibility to a child now, and no one's coming. No one's coming. Do if you want something done, you're gonna have to roll up your sleeves and start it yourself, not ever finish it, complete it. It takes teams of hundreds of people to do these projects, but, but you going to have to be the catalyst.
Marion Ellis 23:10
I have to say that's quite inspiring to go out and and do that. And I can certainly see why a job was created for you at octopus to just go out and and do all of this different stuff. And you're and that resonates in sort of different ways, and I'm sure it will with people listening that when you're annoyed enough, or when something's happened, or you're at your lowest, that's when you get that motivation or the good idea. You know, we sort of talk about values and doing the right thing, and it all becomes hard to do until you get that really, need to have a good kick at the backside, you know, to to really, really spew you on. Tell me about, more about your career as a surveyor. Because you, you, you took the rural path, or worked in rural is that right? Yeah, which I don't, I don't know what idea I had of a rural surveyor in my head, but it wasn't you. Emma, no,
Emma Fletcher 24:06
yeah. Okay, so long story short, it starts off in a pub in Watford, a spoons in Watford, and a friend's sister said to me, Do you fancy a job at Bucha and palace as a tour guide? And so for the year after I finished my A levels the summer and the first year of university, I worked with tour guide at Buckingham Palace. I then bumped into somebody at an event at university, and they said, Look, do you like some work experience the Duchy of Cornwall? That's how the conversation opened up. I've worked at tour guide. Oh, did I work with the duchy? Would you like to come do and I did some amazing work experience down in the Duchy of Cornwall. Dutch of Cornwall for a couple of weeks in the summer. And I thought, You know what? This is a role. None of my family has surveyors, but I was, you know, I'd done gold Dov. I love being outside. Three or four generations back, my family were farmers, but nothing in my lifetime. And and I just thought, you know what, I just want to be. Not and about I don't want to be behind a desk. So then the final summer of my of my second year at university, I did some work experience at bid wells in Cambridge, and it was a really exciting time. The rural department there were compulsory acquiring a section of the train line for the Channel Tunnel link from London down to Folkestone. So I was getting together all the plans, and it was really amazing. And I thought, You know what this is? This is, you know what I want to do? And they were very kind, and they offered me a job. So I went back into my third year at university knowing I had a job in the rural department the following September. So I don't think I really even thought about it. And this is kind of my career. I never think about it. People say, I don't know. I do something. People then respond and offer me a job, and I end up doing it. I didn't really give it much thought. If I'm entirely honest with you, I just thought, you know, I really want to do this, but the commercial realities of day to day, rural surveying are actually quite tough. The margins are very tight at the time. I'm not saying this case, a lot of my colleagues had Second Incomes through family estates or farms. They may not have been the inheritor, but they, you know, they had some for me. And I'm not gonna lie, I really struggled on the on the salary for two years, I really struggled. I got into quite a lot of debt my husband. You know what I mean, it was, it was a tough time in terms of monetary coming out of university, seeing a lot of friends off to the city, make a load of money, and I decided to take this path of, you know, a lovely sort of profession, but, but it was tough. And so within the second year of my APC doing real surveying, I decided actually to move into the newly formed development department. You know, the salaries were better, the returns were better, the profitability of the team was better to justify it, and and I think that was the right move for me, but you are right. I wasn't a natural fit to the rural department. I mean, where I come from, shooting is the drive by type, not the pheasant or the dark corner. You know what? I mean, the game type, that's not where I come from. And on my first day in the job, everyone I thought was Watford supporters, because they all had these yellow, black and red ties on which I had no idea was the colors of siren sister Agricultural College. So we were pretty much diametrically in part from the second I walked through the door. So yeah, but it was really good. I don't take it back, but it was a tough two years and and always, wherever I've had a trainee come and start me, I've always tried to get them some money up front to help them through that first month, help them buy a suit to start work and get them through that first month. That first month was just set me back so badly for those two years, having to pay for rent of a property, new job, it was a really tough time
Marion Ellis 27:47
when we study to get our APC and go through those early years, I often find I often see a lot of resilience being built, and that's what you've sort of just demonstrated. I was in a an APC Whatsapp group that I check out every now and again, just to help me feel young and in touch
Unknown Speaker 28:12
with the kids. Everybody's about 25
Marion Ellis 28:18
and I was, I was an ASOC, assoc group, not an APC group, yeah. And they were talking about, you know, how do you fit it all in? You know, and there were, there was a lady there who was pregnant, you know, she explaining how she juggles two jobs and then studies in the evening. And, you know, there are all these sort of really inspiring stories of, this is how we, how we make it work. And, you know. So when you're in those those early years, you're you're building a lot, but you just need someone to give you a break. And money is huge. I mean, I remember when I was studying for my my APC, if I didn't pass, I wouldn't have been able to pay my mortgage. And then I lost my flat the next month, you know, it was the, you know, because I was going to get a salary increase, and it was such a fine, fine line. And I think, you know, because we work in property, people think that we are affluent, you know, but not every surveyor can afford to buy their own home. A lot of them are in shared ownership or renting, paying off student loans, debts. It's not a cheap and easy career to get into. And I think, I think, you know, those of us who have further, further, you know, along in our careers, need to remember that and that little bit of leg up, or it's absolutely huge, the cost of interviews and getting there, you know,
Emma Fletcher 29:40
yeah. And also just the social side, when you arrive, everyone used to go to the pub on a Friday lunch. And I'm sure culture is probably different if we used to go for a quick pub lunch. We had an hour on a Friday, and we run to the pub, have lunch, come back. But actually, I couldn't afford to go to the pub on a Friday, and they would go out and do. Events in the evening. I couldn't afford to do that. And actually I do remember, after saying no to a number of events, one of the equity partners did say, oh, Emma, you keep saying no to coming out. It's like because I can't afford to. And he actually said, Don't worry, I've got this COVID. And I actually then went out and I got to know the team better, and I actually felt part of the team, but it was a little bit socially isolating, which is a little bit probably a lot, you know, you're trying to juggle money and and that one nice gesture, kind favor, he won a lot of it. Won a lot of effort back from me. I you know, we had a project we had to do some Saturday working. I went on a Saturday because I knew he suddenly realized, you know what? I mean, he was in the nicest possible, not strange, weird way. He was looking out for me if we went out. He was kindly covering my my bill, because I genuinely couldn't afford to do it. Otherwise,
Marion Ellis 30:54
it's, um, yeah. On the one hand, we've got to notice that, you know, and support where we where we can. On the other hand, you know, it was brave of you to admit that that we you couldn't afford it, because not everybody, you know, we talk about lots of different things as society. We don't always talk about money, but we've got to learn to advocate for ourselves too. You know, I didn't
Emma Fletcher 31:15
have to step up straight away. I didn't stand up straight away. It was just picked up on it, yeah,
Marion Ellis 31:22
yeah, yeah, sure. I know you can work with housing association. So tell me a bit about the bridge from, you know, rural. You said, when it's planning, you know, to to where you then went. So,
Emma Fletcher 31:35
so went rural to development, but all in house at bid wells. And then I thought, You know what, I'm going to go and actually do the do I was selling land to developers. And then in a slightly sort of, I don't know what the right thing, but I was driven to think I could do just as good as some of the people I was sending selling land to. And I thought I could turn my hand to it. So an opportunity came up, so I went developer side, but the developer I chose did lot of things in partnership, so the hill group, so literally, by naturally working for them, I've always worked alongside housing associations. Everything was done working with them on section 106, etc. So you are right. My most recent job, before coming to octopus, was working for housing housing associations. For a couple of years, it was for four housing associations that were running a development company for them, and then with the cost of living crisis and more than damp stuff, they disbanded that company. So I pulled that apart, and then I went to work for one of them, purely and solely for them, it's a very interesting place to be they have many challenging kind of pulls on them, be it from a customer service angle, be it from sorting out their existing stock as well as trying to sort of look to the future and build new stock. And I think, yeah, you couldn't work in a more challenged place, in many ways, because you are literally involved in people's lives, because those tenants are there already. It's not, you know, building something new, selling it, and never interacting with the people ever again. So definitely taught me a lot of empathy, but also really exposed some of the big societal issues we've got out there in terms of, you know, you can live in a bubble, really, quite a lot of the time, and not really appreciate the severity and the breadth of the problem. You know. You can think, Oh, it's just one little housing estate over there that you know near me. But actually, across the country, there are hundreds of 1000s of, you know, millions of people, you know, living in homes that have a housing association landlord, you know, and those homes have got to be looked after.
Marion Ellis 33:53
It's, it's very much a reality check, I think, isn't it to see how, how people live, you know, and circumstances, but then also the how the organizations work, how they're funded, how they're set up, the rules that they have to adhere to just to be able to to function. Yeah, it's pretty, pretty sobering. I think a lot of it and and as surveyors, well, me included. But I, you know, I see this quite a lot. We're very sort of judgmental, you know, we see, we see in the Herber, see it online, in various places, you know, where you've repaired something with Flash band, you know, what else can you do? You know, use that for. And I remember when I was, when I was doing my my APC, I was walking to the station with my boyfriend, now husband, and being all you know, confidence, I just learned about roofs and things like that. I'd I said, Oh, look, you know, repaired it with whatever, and it was. Hodgy piece of plastic stuck on the roof or whatever. You know, spoke myself. I remember my husband just saying, maybe they just can't afford to repair it. Marion, I felt so shit hadn't occurred to me. You know, of course, of course, they've repaired it like that. And I think sometimes, particularly working in residential home buying and selling. You know, we you can afford to buy your own home. You know, you're in a Alright, it might be hard, but you're not. You're in a different position to so so many people, and yet, on the other side, particularly if we're doing valuation inspections, when you walk into people's homes, you walk into their lives, and you see all sorts of different things, all sorts of conditions, particularly if it's a rental. HMO, illegal. HMO, you know, patch I used to working many years ago. Croydon was near the home office. There was all sorts of people there, you know, it was really, it's really insightful, and we should never, never forget that. I think it's, I think it's good to just broaden your knowledge and experience in different different sectors. Want to appreciate, yeah, I
Emma Fletcher 36:17
mean, I'd always seen my career as a bit of a triangle, you know, sort of surveyor, Agent side, landowner side, and then developer side, and then sort of it became more of a square when I added in the Housing Association, but then I've sort of tipped it into a pentagon with energy. So, do you know what I mean? I'm, you know, I'm, I am not the in depth specialist, but where I think I'm really good at and where my specialism lies is tying some of this stuff together, and that's sort of what feeds my career, you know, curiosity. So, you know, I don't know whether there'll be another side to the shape, but I do think adding value to yourself is probably quite critical in more modern times, maybe the Forever career, from passing your APC and staying in the firm right to the end is is not for many anymore, because to add value with internally. And to be fair, I kind of saw a little bit myself. I saw somebody came in who had a bit of development expertise, and he was valued more greatly in terms of financial, you know, salary. And I suddenly thought, yeah, I've got to Up skill a little bit more. I've got to think of myself needing a bit more learning and understanding of the world. Because a bit like you said, you sort of do your APC, and then you kind of have to teach yourself the rest. If, you know, there's courses, yes, but you have to go out and find these skills and sort of teach yourself what current legislation is. It's sort of, it's by osmosis, really. You have to make sure you're picking this stuff up as you go along.
Marion Ellis 37:56
Well, that's the whole point of CPD, isn't it, that you keep on growing and expanding, and it's a bit like passing your driving test, but then you've actually got to learn to drive on the motorway regularly and drive down those, you know, funny little roads, and you don't know what the speed limit is. And, you know, putting it all into put it all into practice, something that I really appreciated. So I was on governing council a couple of years ago, they promised me world travel. We've got a global pandemic and an inquiry, but it really opened my eyes to the global picture on the built environment and land construction, all of those things. It was a huge, huge leap. And I always there's a kid's story called The snail and the whale. Julia, Julia Donaldson book, yeah, the snail was so small and the whale was so big, and and it was like, wow, the world is big, and all this stuff's going on. I'm stuck in my spare room on Zoom again, but it gave me a real perspective that we are it's more than I think, yeah, and we always talk about with our ICs, global domination and all of that, that stuff, and I get all that, I think that's more about the way we do it. But when you look at, you know, things that you can learn what other countries are doing, and how they're using different initiatives, or what's worked, or what's failed, you know, and sort of bring, bring that back, so, but that closing, that that gap, but it was I really, even though I didn't get to go anywhere, I really valued that, that perspective, for sure. Yeah,
Emma Fletcher 39:35
I totally agree. I think just seeing, seeing it from a different lens, a different angle is really quite important. And also, you know, I've had kids, so I've always kept my career quite close to Cambridge. Historically, this job has brought me to London, and I feel really excited. It's like the big smoke. You know, I still work remote, but once a week I try and come to London, and it's. And I do, I walk from King's Cross. I If I can, I always get the earlier train, even if it means getting up at two o'clock, like this one. And I walk through Bloomsbury and I have a, I have a 90s song track I put on at King's Cross, and it's so sad. It's such a mum thing. But I put my headphones in, and I love it. I walk for 40 minutes, admiring the architecture, the trees. I love Bloomsbury square. I mean literally, I love it. I love seeing the seasons. I come down once a week. I just see it change. I'm weirdly obsessed. On one of the squares, there's a bench where everybody sits on this one bench. There's plenty of other benches, but why do they always sit on this one bench wherever the time of day? So, you know, I feel a bit like that with this job, and and then also, we've got a global context as well. It's the first time I've worked for a global company, and it really does, yeah, it gives you a different angle. And I think for anybody out there who's, you know, dare I say it, starting 2025 thinking, you know, I feel a little bit in a rut, actually go and spin it up and get a different angle on things. I think for me, this new year has felt really special. You know, it with the middle of the decade. You know, I can remember the millennium, and we're now at 2025, in 25 years time, that's when we meant to have got to net zero. It's sort of I can I can really compart this year. It's really weird, but this year I can really compartmentalize it in my head. It's five years to 2030 so many people have pledged to do things by 2030 technically no more gas boilers come 2035 that's 10 years. That's the warranty on your new gas boiler you're putting in this year. You know, I don't know. It just feels like a really landmark year to me, and it's really odd, but coming back to work, I'm thinking, we got to go do stuff now. We got to go roll up our sleeves and go properly do stuff. But I mean maybe, maybe you feel differently. But for me, it's the 25 years from the millennium, and I can remember that in my working career.
Marion Ellis 42:00
Yes, I agree. Firstly, when I, when I go into London, which isn't, isn't very often the day, these days, I always get assaulted, caramel, hot chocolate from Hotel chocolate. I don't have an IT soundtrack, but I do have a treat. They do really good ice cream.
Speaker 1 42:17
In the summer, I found out they do excellent
Marion Ellis 42:25
I don't know if I feel as enthusiastic about 2025, as you but I do totally get, I think there's something about the chunks of five, you know. And I'll actually be 50 this year, and I remember, I know. I know. I remember sitting in a biology lesson and working out, you know, in 1995 Albee in 19 and 2000 and now I remember even thinking it all down, and I don't remember what I thought I would be doing. I remember just being in awe of, Wow, those numbers are going to go by really quickly, but I think there, there is, there's, there's a lot to to achieve. There's a lot to be done. There's a lot of purpose, you know, in terms of people's motivations to go and do things. And there's still, you know, lots of uncertainty, when you look at the political situation in different countries, and we're all thinking, how can this happen? You know, are we going backwards? And it does, and going back to your point, you know, earlier on about motivation, if ever there's a time to look at some of the stuff that's going on and be motivated to say, actually, no, we need to do things different, or we've got to start stop moving forward. Now's the time to do it. Let me ask you about our ICs. Just then about the PGP, because you're Chair of the PGP. Tell us, I know you've done podcasts and things with our ICs, and I'll put links to those, but tell us a bit more about about that. So
Emma Fletcher 43:54
again, probably a job I never thought I'd be applying for, if I'm entirely honest, but through the district heat network. I'd been involved a little bit with the retrofit group, and I have to confess that I'm not sure I added a great deal to the retrofit group, because it was quite technical, whereas I was much more, sort of delivered a project on retrofit, rather than the day to day technicalities of the surveying, but, but I met a few more people, and again, when I was working for a developer and a housing association, a bit of a lost sheep, if I'm honest, yes, I was a surveyor, but a bit of a lost sheep. And I've always been really proud to be a surveyor, but probably not the best surveyor in terms of engagement, the R OCS. When I got married, I remember my dad being so proud. I'd recently qualified, and, you know, made a big deal of it, and that made me proud to be a surveyor as well. My dad, you know, who didn't have a formal profession, really recognized it. And I just, you know, when we had the regional offices, I did quite a. Lot when there was the regional offices and meeting up, and I just sort of felt that disconnect. And I thought, You know what, if there is the time to do, it is when you've now got a job in London, you know what? I mean, you're not that far away. You can get into the rocs and get more engaged. So, so I applied. I didn't once think I would get it. I mean, I struggled with trying to do a five minute presentation with that, or 10 minute presentation about notes on all these things. And I, you know, and even just trying to remember things. So I'm nervous. I'm slightly dyslexic, so, you know, trying to remember things like, and I had all these notes, and I can work out what to wear. And, you know, because at work, we wear trainers, I'm thinking, God, I got my trainers, the obvious, but got to go a bit to work afterwards, I'm gonna have to pack smart shoes. Remember that I've got SWAT all these sort of connotations and views and things. So I didn't once think I was going to get it, but, um, but you know what? I am really pleased I am not your typical home buyer survey type of surveyor. But what I think I bring is difference. As the Chair, I am not coming at it with any set angle. I have a really broad group within the residential team. But also coming from a data company, I have learned so much about how data is king, and how a data driven company really can disrupt an entire market, and I think in a world of AI and data, I think I've brought some different insight to the group and trying to move views on a little bit more differently when it comes to sustainability. I mean, I'm not going to say we've cracked the nut, but I'm going to say I've got some pretty motivated colleagues on the group as well, and whilst we spent possibly the first year really sort of getting ourselves a bit more organized and structured, I do think we have a base or a platform from which to springboard on and actually be a good voice for the industry as a whole. But you know, time will only tell, right? It's a new generation of PGPs, you know, but I think we have the ability to do something a bit different.
Marion Ellis 47:12
And many of the people listening to the podcast work in the residential survey, home buying and selling side. But residential PGP is much broader than that, isn't it? Yeah,
Emma Fletcher 47:22
I mean, we've got people who run their own lettings business through to experts in leasehold reform. We've got somebody who works for local government doing feasibilities, effectively, viability work against developers effectively. We've got, we've got people working in Scotland who are under a completely different sales system, and therefore surveyors are doing more stuff up front, and then down to the people from NHBC who are looking at the future and what technologies are coming into our home. So a really broad group of people. We tried to get some more people from things like auctioneering as well, just to try and but it wasn't so forthcoming and and if I'm honest, maybe a bit more housing association focus as well to get a bit more public sector balance would have been good. But if I'm entirely honest with you, where I wish to be is in a position where people have faith and wish to put themselves forward next time around when the elections come up. It was a bit of a leap of faith. You know, we were set up after all the reviews. And so therefore, I think, you know, if we can bring a bit of structure and certainty, I'd really, my greatest hope would be more people stand up to be counted and wish to join in future iterations and generations of the PGP.
Marion Ellis 48:47
How do you find managing that as a group? Because it's great to have that diverse range of skills and experience, but they're all fighting for you know, their their views to be represented, and their and their in their sectors. How have you found managing that, that diversity? It's
Emma Fletcher 49:07
not been totally easy, full disclosure, you know, sometimes showing people the future can be a little bit scary, you know. But at the same time, does anybody want to be having that Kodak moment, you know? And I think, I think I'm there to challenge the norm and maybe be a bit spiky. I probably don't have a traditional chair kind of approach, you know. I like everybody to have a view. I'm not coming in here necessarily with any set views. Challenge me. You know, I respect you. You're bright, intelligent people in your sectors. If you think it's wrong, tell me why it's wrong, you know. And let's have a debate and a discussion about it and and actually, the way we started our group, and there's, there's, you know, obviously. Be six other groups in terms of all the different areas and stuff, but, but it's actually, let's look at the strengths, the weaknesses and actually the threats that are coming forward, together with the legislation, the environment, and actually took a bit of a political global view as well. And I think when you can boil it down, we've now got six areas we're really focused on the but where I want to be is that we are able, as surveyors, to be the truth in a world of crazy data, media, social media, other influences at the end of the day, when you boil down everything in a petri dish and what's left at the bottom, surveyors are there to measure and report and tell the truth. You know that that's what we're there for. And it could be measuring energy, or it could be measuring the area of a field. It could be, you know, measuring any type of performance. But at the end of the day, we are the truth, and I think that's what we really need to hold on to in a world of data. And AI is that actually we're trusted and that we're respected. And yeah, I That's how I feel we should be.
Marion Ellis 51:15
That's interesting. You say that about measurement because the RSS motto is Modus and Rebus? I should know that. But there's measuring all things. You know, in the in the in the calf, isn't there at our ICS London, on the basement, there's measuring in all things. And I get that, but I, I would also add that depends what you're measuring. You know, what's the purpose of the thing that you're measuring is a useful measure. And are you targeting to meet that measure or target? Because then it becomes useless. You know, it's wealth targeting and things. It's everything behind that, isn't it? Precisely,
Emma Fletcher 51:52
yeah. And because I'm a bit of a shadow, I love an OS map, so I've been reading the history of the OS and, you know, the reason we started measuring things was because of military issues up in Scotland. Went up there to fight all these tribes in Scotland. They all disappeared up the Glen, and we didn't have a clue where, you know, we the the English and the clue where they've gone. So, of course, that's when somebody said, Right, I need to know where they've gone. You've got to go out and measure the land. And that's sort of how this all really kicked off is actually, you know, like you were saying, Why are you measuring something? Well, we're measuring it effectively to map it in order to go and work out how to go and, you know, fight so, you know, they knew the purpose of why they were going out to measure it had a military purpose in that instance. And I think you're totally bang on. We need to be very clear about what we're measuring, maybe not measuring too much either, and getting too bogged down in the details, but being able to actually work out what we've got to do and actually make some decisive action with it.
Marion Ellis 52:56
And there's having the data, you know, so it's making sure we're bringing the data in, but also the absence of data could tell you an awful lot about what needs to happen. Too fascinating that you read in the the was it book about the history of the OS map? Visit or, yeah, yeah, link to that in the show notes. Edit to my reading list. But you just reminded me many years ago, when I was during my first thing at my feet, yeah, my first pregnancy. So 15 years ago, I worked at corporate, and they were clearing out one of the old offices, and they got rid of, there's a skip, and they got rid of all sorts of surveying books and RICS. Uh, ICS, little a five booklets. Can't remember what they call them now, surveys journal, I think it used to be called, so me, very heavily pregnant, climbed into a skip to get all these books, and had to be rescued out by some Adam and team for mortified, but I've still got them, and I think they're up in my I've moved them into my loft a little while ago, but they go back to 1896 I've got hundreds of them. Husband that thinks thought I was mad. But when you look back through those, effectively, Modus of the day, I suppose when you read back through them, they're fascinating because they talk about the things that they were they were measuring, you know, it is a lot about agriculture. It is a lot about land, train lines, development. They've got little maps of, I remember, like London. There's one particular one of Bristol, you know, what it was like in like 1905 something like that, but they talk about a lot of the issues that we have today. You know about over developed areas, pollution. It's really insightful to look back and see where, where, where it all. Began. And the one of the fascinating things about it is a lot of it's quite personal. So yes, it's sort of about date, the data of the time, the measurement, the thoughts and views, you know. But in some of them, I remember reading some poetry, you know. And but they recorded all of like the what would have been the equivalent of the given in council meetings, you know, and the things that they would talk about and why. And I remember reading some poetry in there, but I also came across it was like a mini annual report for Lionheart. I think it was about 1935 1937 and it took it sort of listed out where all the shillings and pence and money had gone. And there was a little sort of snippet in there about how a donation that had been made to the widow of a surveyor had allowed a child to go on to university, you know, and to go on and do great things. They all celebrated it. So, you know, wherever we think about where we're at now, the RICS, love and hate, frustration, all of those things actually looking back to where we where we came from. The purpose of organizing, the organization. But also, there's not so much about about our ICs, but also just as as surveyors, and why we do what we do within the built environment. Yeah, it was quite I have to get them out the loft again. Yeah. And
Emma Fletcher 56:29
the problems may be this, you know, are probably almost like the same. They may be bigger or greater or smaller, but there's a familiar pattern of problems. But the one thing I would say is that I think surveyors have always embraced change and move with the times and embrace new legislation, new technology. I don't think we should be scared about the speed of change we have to now adapt to I genuinely think we are well placed to understand core principles and be able to adapt them. And I think, you know, it's been a little bit static, probably in our current lifetime, but the world is much more complex, and computers have have added to that, but they've also facilitated some amazing step forwards in efficiency and working. So I think, you know, we should embrace it, but I also think making sure we've got time for doing what we want to be achieving to if it personally. Because, you know, when I first started, I'd write a letter and I'd send a letter off, and then the instruction from the client would come back, and, you know, it would be, it could be a week before you actually did anything, whereas now it's sort of 30 seconds on an email, backwards and forwards and and I am terrible at this. I'm very impulsive. I do things straight away or tend to forget, but I think actually just a little bit of a breather when emails come back, just thinking, Is that the right thing? What do I say back? Rather than being just quite so instant back? I'm my own worst enemy on this, by the way, but I have tried really hard that if I look at stuff on my phone, that I then mark it as unread, and then come back and really think about it on the laptop. But I do think technology is only going to change in one way, and so therefore we've got to really move with it. And I kind of liken it a bit to churches. When churches were built, they used the best technology, right? So if you were building a church today, you'd be using some amazing technology, because that was the best money could buy. So we've got to evolve and really strive forwards.
Marion Ellis 58:34
I think that reflective thought is really important, because it's not just, you know, after you've done a survey. And then you think about reflective thought. It's reflective thought at each stage, and thinking about the impact and the consequences. And like you say, Take that, take that breather just before we finish up. You've, you've mentioned technology and AI and AI is quite, quite fascinating, amazing and quite scary, you know, in terms of the how that might impact and support, for better or worse, with on what the work we do as surveyors, you know, and recently, I've come across things like, I know one, one large employer in London, who's now going back to Face to face interviews, because the graduates that were interviewing were all using AI for the application forms, but also on the video interviews, they'd sort of program GT GPT to listen to the question and then come up with a perfect answer. I came across that is clever. Clever, yeah, but they almost sort of, you know, they just give it a pattern with the graduates and and you just think, fair, do's, you know, but, you know, they just taught themselves out of a job because, well, clearly, I can just get a computer to do. That's not what they're looking for. I also came across, you. A sort of piece of software program where, and the survey showed me this, where you can get a home survey, pop it in, and it created, like a 20 minute recording podcast of two people, sort of talking and debriefing the survey. Now, you know, is it right context, all of those things so ranges from, you know, can I use Grammarly, you know, and things for spell check, one end, all the way through to, wow, you know, that's quite, quite scary. And actually, I was at the, I was at the Sava conference in Coventry a few months ago, and one of the firms there had like, two banners, and they were, you know, and I've talked to the chap, and he said, one of these is generated by AI, and they had pictures of surveyors, you know, as part of their sort of branding. And really, you couldn't tell the difference, you know, as to which one was a photograph or not. And the only reason I could tell the difference, which is sad to say, was but one of them was too good looking and too perfect to me, maybe,
Speaker 1 1:01:17
right? We need a bit of a glow up. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, I think there's
Emma Fletcher 1:01:23
a place for it. We need to accept it here, and I think it needs to be used in the right places. And I think that's the issue. And, you know, I think we at work, use it to help our actual people, but I think, you know, for surveyors, that's where we add value. We are human people interacting with humans, and we shouldn't ever forget that that is our real USP, and that's what brings joy being in a profession as well, that you know, you meet people, you learn from people, and it's more fulfilling
Marion Ellis 1:01:56
Is that is that human connection, because there's with your client, there's nothing better, and valued more than that conversation of you know, helping them feel better and reassured and that whites of your eyes contact. Emma, it's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you today. Thank you so much.
Emma Fletcher 1:02:13
No thank you, Marion,
Marion Ellis 1:02:16
thanks for listening. Don't forget to take a look at the show notes to follow up on any of the links and resources. You can also find more training, webinars and workshops for surveyors by visiting my website at WWW dot love surveying.com and if you found this helpful, you can show your support by recommending the podcast to others, leaving a review, or simply buying me a coffee. I'll see you next time you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
