Marsha Ramroop 0:00
One of the key things I tend to say is that it's inclusion for all, or it's not inclusion at all. No demographic is outside the concept of inclusion when you have policies, procedures and practices that are from an inclusive lens, that one policy tends to benefit so many people, when you realize you've made a shift in the way that something can be done, whether it's remuneration, whether it's hybrid working, whether it's job share, whether it's progression, all these different things they are fundamentally the way that things can actually change for the better is when you have an inclusive perspective.
Marion Ellis 0:39
Welcome to the survey hub Podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do. Today, on the podcast, I'm speaking to Marsha ramp group. Marcia is an engaging and compelling speaker and former BBC journalist and leader. She's a global award winning inclusion strategist and author with a passion for driving change in the built environment. She sees the sector as an opportunity to influence the creation of a more inclusive world. Marsha was the inaugural director of inclusion diversity at the Royal Institute of British architects. Her book, building inclusion, A Practical Guide to inclusion in architecture and the built environment, is out now and is published by Routledge, all right then. Well, welcome to the podcast, Marsha.
Marsha Ramroop 1:24
Well, thank you for having me delighted to be with you. And as
Marion Ellis 1:27
we were just saying, this is a chat, not an interview. I'm no interviewer, really.
Marsha Ramroop 1:31
You know, that's that's actually probably the best thing ever. I've got that having a chat right now is about where I'm at. And some
Marion Ellis 1:40
days it's just, it's just like that, isn't it? You know, there are important things we need to talk about, and you need to get out there and do that. But sometimes, you know, sometimes we push through, don't we? You know, actually, I was talking to one of my other guests on the podcast, hopefully trying to persuade him to to come on. And he was talking about how terrified he was of doing this stuff and putting himself out there. And, you know, it's a shame people feel like that, but, you know, yeah, just just to have a chat. You know, anyone who's listened to this before knows it can go one or two ways, and we'll see where we go.
Marsha Ramroop 2:17
I'm I, in theory, I'm quite relaxed about these things. Well, I
Marion Ellis 2:24
know as a journalist and broadcaster,
Marsha Ramroop 2:29
yeah, 30 years and of course, I don't look at so don't, don't look like I had 30 years broadcasting before I started another career five years ago.
Marion Ellis 2:39
So let's start there. Tell me a bit more about that.
Marsha Ramroop 2:42
Well, I always knew I wanted to work in radio. I was about 13, actually, when I decided, right, that's what I'm going to do. And then I set about getting whatever experience I possibly could working in sort of radio. And so I worked in hospital radio. I worked in community radio, and actually my first broadcast on an FM station was when I was 15, which was for a charity radio station called Radio cracker, and it was just for the London area. And yeah, we broadcast on on FM, and I did a Sunday morning breakfast show. And then the following year, they sort of networked a number of little radio stations for radio cracker around the whole country. And so my first national news bulletin was what's for radio crack in in 1992 when I was 16 and used to work for hospital radio, like I say. And at that time as well, there was no such thing as DBS checks and CRB checks. So I was able to go in to work for BBC, GLR, because I was living in London at the time, Capital Radio, Chris Tarrant, Kara noble Breakfast Show, and yeah, other, other local stations. And then worked at melody, what was what is now magic in the summers. And then I went to do my post grad in media and communication in what's now Birmingham City universities, the home of the Lenny Henry media Diversity Center. And, yeah, with the great Diane Kemp, who leads that center now. So she was my radio tutor. And I, yeah, when I finished that, I went to work BBC Television Center in BBC News for the Japanese translation unit, and I tell that story in the book. And then, yeah, I had a great career. And then I was like, I was in my early 20s, and I realized I'd, I'd been working non stop. Uh, for, you know, almost 10 years, and I'd arrived at BBC TV center, you know, in the new center, brand new center, that when you came, you came out of white cities right there. And I was like, right What now, this is it. I'm here in my early 20s, I've achieved my career dream. What now? And I had a little crisis, and, well, it wasn't really a crisis as such as, like a COVID. Well, what do I do now? I was living at home. I'm saving half my salary because my parents very good, and they didn't ask me for much. When I was living at home, living life of Riley, had my little car dashing around, you know, rubbing shoulders with who knows what in in the media, and I decided to jack it all in. I resigned my role, and I went traveling around the world. And it was kind of a sorry say
Marion Ellis 6:07
again, how old were you then? So it was like, 20s. I
Marsha Ramroop 6:11
was like, This is my mid 20s. And I decided that I would well at that time. And I mentioned it actually, in, in the in the book event that I had at the the London School, School of Architecture, that at that time as well, I was thinking, Oh, I was, I was a practicing Christian, and I thought that maybe I'd had the call to the ministry to become a Church minister. And I was like, Well, do I, you know, become, you know, full on journalist, or do I become a victim, as one does? And in the end, I came back, and there were some other things going on in my, in my in my private life, and I came back and I decided that I will go the money that I saved, and I'll go and do a post grad in broadcast journalism, and I'll become a journalist. And it's not that I stopped becoming coming Christian. I was still a Christian. I just felt that I couldn't in I thought that Vickers, I thought that church ministers were people of integrity. I thought that's what they were, and that I myself was not I love to party, I like to drink, I like to flirt, and I didn't think that I could really be a good church minister whilst being a good time girl. So journalism suited me turn to the ground, but really importantly, as I was doing the work as a journalist and going out into communities, there was still the same purpose and service in that kind of role for me, where it was about trying to facilitate and support others and find out what their needs were, and campaign, I suppose, as well justice, social justice, these things were important to me. So, yeah, I guess I didn't leave that behind in terms of those values. I just delivered them to journalism whilst also having a good time.
Marion Ellis 8:35
You know, there's so many never really told that story before. Well done. Now I'm a good interviewer, one question, and whoosh, we've got your your life. Oh, so, so many things there really, really interesting. Actually, there are quite a few surveyors I know who, who are priests or vicars. And it's interesting that you, yeah, yeah. And it's interesting that the you know, you sort of it, sort of, you tune into that sense of purpose and the difference that you can, that you can make. So that's, I find that really, really interesting. And lots of surveyors tell me, you know, the reason they fall into survey, surveying, or become surveyors, is that making a difference. And I think there's something, you know, built environments, very physical, you know, around us and tangible, and we can, we can see it and we can, we can feel it. And so the change is very visible, you know, physically. And the difference that, you know, it makes the rules over our head feeling safe and secure, you know, the vital things. So it was interesting, you say? You say that? Yeah,
Marsha Ramroop 9:43
well, I mean it. I like to think that most of us who go out to work on a day to day basis do so out of a sense of purpose. You know, living life, wanting it to be something that will benefit others, not just for ourselves. Themselves and I but I think I'm in a little bit of a bubble in that respect, because I think that not all of us have the privilege or the access to the education or the support which allows us to to just live our purpose. And so I feel incredibly grateful that, you know, they're able to forge a path for myself and receive support from others to be able to do so, and being able certainly that movement from you know, having had this career, the career that I believed I always wanted, and then leaving that to focus on inclusion strategy was, was scary, scary for me, scary for my husband in particular, who really values financial security and me go, you know, this really great final salary pension that I've got with the PBC, just thing might leave that behind and go into nothing, whereas just about betting on myself, and he bet he, you know, He put all his eggs in that basket as well, and bet on me as well. So it's, it's been quite a journey, for sure.
Marion Ellis 11:12
Tell me a bit about the the work that you then went on to to do because you worked at Riba, you know, you sort of found yourself there. And then you've, we'll talk about the the book that you then gone on written, but tell me about the, the journey on then from, from the BBC.
Marsha Ramroop 11:27
Gosh, so I, yeah, had handed in my, my resignation from the BBC. And there's a story there, but not one that that's, that's, I can broadcast, really,
Marion Ellis 11:41
likes, see,
Marsha Ramroop 11:42
yeah, definitely, I'd say so basically, very long story short, and discreetly, I suffered institutional racism and the impact of that meant it was quite impactful, and I felt I had to leave as well. So then I had gone. I was actually working a lot in the arts and culture space, in the inclusion space. So in here I live, up in Derby in Derbyshire, and the derby Creative Arts Network were coming together to look at, how can they, you know, work on arts and culture in the city more inclusively. So it was an opportunity to work with the football club, with the theater, with the art center, with very small venues, the university, and it was a really, you know, great piece of work that I was doing, and I had other clients, and things were going well, but I saw the job advertised just on LinkedIn to become the director of inclusion At the Riba. And I think following George Floyd's murder, there were a lot of places that were looking for directors of inclusion. So I suppose to some extent, if I wanted to apply for a role, I could have taken my pick. At that time, NHS were asking for people finance. You know, you there were hundreds of these roles, but I saw the one at the Riba, and I it wasn't so much that that I needed it. It was very much a case of that I wanted it, that I wanted to work in the opportunity to influence the creation of inclusive spaces, and the first memory that sparked for me was that of Stephen Lawrence, because I had always remembered, I always remembered that he wanted to become an architect, and the unfulfilled potential. And when I mentioned this to other people who don't work in the built environment, they're like, really, you want to become an architect. Like this is not something that everybody kind of recognized about him, if you're outside that sector. And that was one of the things. And I just thought, oh, I don't know, there was some kind of connection in me, which was Stephen Lawrence architecture and me working inclusion. And then I also remembered all the work that's going on at the palaces of Westminster right now to refurbish it. There was a radio show that I'd listened to many years ago, and I remember them talking on the radio about how they could take the work of Parliament out of out of the palaces, and it could travel around the country, and they could do the work of making policy in circular rooms. And when I was listening to this, there was this, basically, there was scoffing. There was incredulous laughter in the radio studio that this could happen. Like, how ridiculous that we could possibly, you know, make make policy and run parliament from anywhere other than Westminster. And I remember thinking, well, this is, this is. A problem. This is the problem. This is fundamental to some of the issues that we have in our politics, that literally, our politicians face off at a dispatch box, that they are very combative rather than conciliatory and compassionate, and that actually, if policy could be made in circular rooms and spaces that and different geographical locations, that there was an opportunity to be more compassionate in our policy making and in our world. And I fundamentally understood then, just from listening to that discussion, how our physical spaces influence how we are with each other. And I really felt then that if I could go into an organization, into a space, into a sector leading position where I could say I have a different view about how we could create inclusion, inclusive spaces. This is my proposal of how we can do that. I felt that if I could do that, that I could really make an impact in the world. And so that's what I said when I when I sort of made my application and in my interview, this is why I want to do this job, and this is how I would like to do it. And they said, Yes, come along. And I said, I said one thing this in the in the job interview, I said, these are fundamentally problematic roles. They're very difficult to do. And I'm a brown woman, you know, I identify in lots of different ways. You don't necessarily, you know, see on the outside and I, but I'm prepared to put my body in the way of the bullets. But when those bullets come, I need your support, and I need that to know that you will always have my back as leadership. So I went into the role, and I was, I think I was very successful doing it. I was, I was able to communicate with clarity what we needed to do, why we needed to do it. Started putting place a number of different things, building on the work. They had had a consultant come in and do some some prep work so it wasn't completely cold, but some of the work that she did, I needed to build on and adapt and so that it was more useful. And so I did. I There were no number of different things I did. The first was introduced cultural intelligence as the capability to work and relate effectively across difference. And I can tell you about that in a second. I set up the communities for underrepresented groups, initially for staff, but the original plan was for that to be opened up to membership. I ran something called riba radio. So the inclusion Charter, which the Riba did for its its members, was a useful set of commitments, but there was nothing to back it up. So they needed members, needed insight. How do we fulfill these, these commitments? And so that's what riba radio was about. It was a really wonderful moment where I had the support. I had the funding at the time. They had resource, I had the agency to be able to bring together my expertise as a broadcaster and my expertise as an inclusion consultant, and then deliver that in a really fun and engaging way for for, for people. And so that that was available, it was seven days live broadcasting, and then it was repeated, and then all the content now lives as podcasts, online, uh, lots of different things, you know, from inclusive recruitment to how to deal with discomfort and white shame, through to, you know, what is unconscious bias, through to what does success look like, all those sorts of things. 2029, episodes of that riba radio that people can access, and then various other bits of policy and so on that I started to introduce. And so it was, I was, I was, I was very successful doing that. But various things happened where I felt that I no longer had the support of leadership in the way that I had anticipated. And so I started to feel unsafe in so far as should those bullets come, where I would have the support that I needed, and felt it was the better thing to do was to resign at that point, and so I went back into consultancy and been working ever since. So that's like two and a half years ago now, since I left and here I am still trying to fight the good fight for the built environment, knowing that if I could still try to influence that creation of inclusive spaces, that maybe I could influence the creation of an inclusive world
Marion Ellis 19:48
that's so interesting. Sometimes I think we have a voice on the inside, and at other times, our voice is stronger on the outside, you know, into. Terms of influencing and doing different things. And I think because our lives and careers go on, sometimes we just have to trust our gut to know is when it's time to step up to some of these roles or step away. And I think that psychological safety and having someone have your back is, you know, whatever you're doing, wherever you are, is is absolutely vital. People in who have roles within diversity, I think, do have a tough gig, and so, and I hadn't really, I mean, I always appreciated it, but hadn't fully appreciated, actually, until you just started to share your experience there, because they're often, you know, diversity is often somebody's responsibility within the whole organization, you know. And actually it's everybody's responsibility, not just, not just that one person, they often carry the weight on their shoulders, you know, because they're very passionate and and want to do, to do the right thing. Getting their message across isn't always easy, and the fight for, you know, communication and comes and and getting those changes, you know, the way an organization is run, the way it behaves the employees, but also then the clients or members, you know, whatever institution we're part of, you know, there is a different, different strands to it, and it never, it shouldn't always come down to one team or one particular, particular person in terms of, you know, those who were sort of working the in the diversity space, in different roles. You know, it's been, it's been, it's been in the press about, you know, unconscious bias training. Does it work or does it not work? They're often very sort of different views over what is the right thing to do, the wrong thing to do. Everybody's got an opinion on everything. I think the thing I find a lot of that is obvious. The thing I find most disheartening, I think, is when there's infighting between the diversity groups, you know, women's groups, organizations are massively competitive. They may not go out and say it, but sort of almost sort of tribal and territorial over how they do things, and as someone who doesn't fit in to a lot of those groups, and you know, there are people from more underrepresented, diverse groups than me as a, you know, as a middle aged female, if I feel like I don't belong in places, then lots of other people will, and I think so much of it is so sad, because everyone sets out with the intention to do good and do better, because it's so important, and yet, by our own behaviors and not under not not being aware or not being supported, it just seems to fail sometimes. And I leave me wondering, why would anybody want to go into that, into that role? I suppose that the purpose has to be strong. I guess I feel like I'm going to quote Star Wars and say the force,
Marsha Ramroop 23:15
it's not even that. It's, it's, it's actually the issue is that we're, we're dealing with diversity in those circumstances, rather than inclusion. So what I mean by that is, I'm going to start by quoting a poem that I, I use a lot in, you know, in recently, when, when I'm asked this question, I find it really summarizes things. And it's a poem by rupee call, and she says they threw us into a pit to end each other so they wouldn't have to starved us of space for so long, we had to eat each other up to stay alive. Look up, look up, look up to catch them looking down at us. How can we compete with each other when the real monster is too big to take down alone? And I follow that up by saying, inclusion isn't about other people and their identities, it's about us and our behaviors. What is it about me? What is it about our leadership team? What is it about our organization that needs to change so we could be more inclusive of you, whoever you are, because we're all made up of multiple layers, multiple identities. And what we find with in terms of the fatigue points around, you know, people getting burnt out, and a lot of the pressure being put on single people and so on, and they're very passionate, is. We have a lot of identity led initiatives where we are supporting people from underrepresented groups, and there's a lot of emotional labor going into educating others around identities, when what we need to be doing and spending more time on is inclusion led strategies. So how is it that we need to, let's just talk from organization rather than than societal perspective. Right now, what do we need to do in our businesses and organizations and the way that we run things that is going to be effective for our business in terms of how we attract a diversity of people to come and work with us and address under representation. How do we retain that diversity? How do we treat progress and retain those people? How do we create, create inclusive design and deliver products and services that are inclusive. And then how do we engage with our external stakeholders, who uses customers, clients and communities and and this is, this is an overarching inclusion perspective and underpinning inclusion principle to shape organizations where no one sets out. I mean, the vast majority of people don't set out to behave, just, you know, in a discriminatory way as individuals, but it is baked into our systems, and it is baked into our our personalities and into our psyches, and this is because of bias. So going back to your point about unconscious bias awareness programs, there is, there is more than sufficient research to show that one off unconscious bias awareness interventions do not work. They don't work. Just being told that you're biased is not going to help you be less biased, because at any given moment, you have 11 million pieces of information going through your brain and the conscious capacity to process 40 so your brain, as a human, if you have access to all five senses, is processing 10,999,960 bits of information per second, of which you were completely unaware. So you have to shortcut information. These shortcuts are called heuristics, but when you're socialized, when you're educated, when you have political information, financial, environmental information going into your brain, you processing it, it's creating these shortcuts which can create biases, which can be unhelpful in the way that we behave. And therefore, to be human is to be biased, and just knowing your biased is not sufficient. You need to create procedural changes to mitigate that bias. And when we're looking at those who are doing, you know, running some of these these roles and running these initiatives, that those things don't change people's bias. There's not enough systemic and structural change around those initiatives. What those initiatives do is they support the underrepresented in the here and now to feel supported, to feel like their voice is heard, and to provide insight to leaders to be able to make changes, but the fundamental piece of work has got to be the inclusion strategy that organizations and leaders need to take forward. But whilst the conversation is so heavily about identity and not about culture and behaviors, you're going to have this division where we're all eating each other up in the pit because we're trying to find the space. But if we're trying to have a different conversation, which is about culture, behaviors and strategy, well, show me a business person who doesn't want to have a better culture, to have better behaviors and better strategy in their organization, I've yet to meet one, and therefore we need to fund them, and it's a lack of expertise, because people are hiring individuals into These roles who are very passionate about their identity and supporting something about their identity that's mistaken for expertise in the area of strategic inclusion, but there are very few of us who, who, who are, you know, very deliberate about having a different kind of conversation, but it's the one that I'm just trying to share to make sure that we do have more of those types of conversations, rather than the identity led ones.
Marion Ellis 29:50
That's really interesting, Marcia, that's why I've got you on the podcast these questions. So I almost six, seven. Nearly eight years ago now, I started to talk about women in surveying as an initiative rather than an organization. There's lots of great groups out there that do great things. I didn't ever want to run a group. I've tried and experimented and done all different things and what frustrated me was that, not that people weren't talking about women who were surveyors, but that there wasn't a change for women who were surveyors in terms of the number of people coming into the profession. Retention is the is, I think, is the biggest issue, because you can bring as many people in as you like, but if we're leaking out somewhere else, where's the point? But also that that the things that matter and affect us are taken into consideration. So it's never, for me, it was never really about setting up a group. But boy, did it. As I said, it becomes sort of very territorial, and which group are you in? And all of all of those things. And when you talk about inclusion and a couple of things, firstly, from a as an individual who who needs help, who needs support, it's quite a big gap. We don't have those places to go, people to ask. And I suppose, you know gender or however the group or initiative is set up. It's it's an easy first step for somebody, or most people, to to connect with. And then I get the sort of that, that that that support, I agree, inclusion is the way forward, and I actually think about it in terms of customer experience. My background is in defect and valuation claims. As a surveyor, not everybody is set up for success to do their job well. Hence, you know, things go wrong. It's not all about angry customers, but if we tune in to, you know, our clients and customers, but also our employees and what do they need? You know, whether it is you know, they're better with you know, tech and computers and dictation, others will be better in a with a pencil and a piece of paper. You know, to do in their surveys. It's tuning in to what they need to be successful, but recognizing that we are all different, and consistently recognizing when we're different, rather than forcing people to do things one way, one way or another. And we talk about diversity, we talk about inclusion, but it's a it's a really hard thing to manage. You know, you can have all the colors and flavors and shapes and sizes around the table, but how do you have a conversation about something that's important? How do you do, man, you you manage that. And so I've always likened it to a, you know, sort of from a think about is my customer experience training that, that I've had is, you know, understanding, you know what, what helps people stay. I was asked the question over the week, over the weekend, you know, what do we do about the women? You know, well, how do we make sure the women stay? And I just felt like saying, we'll make them feel welcome, make them feel that they belong. How you know? How do you do that? Well, yes, you you ask them, you find out. And I suppose that's where the data and all of those things, things come in. But we are all so different as individuals, you know, and that's where the categorizations and and things come in. So it feels like a different approach to business, to policy, to culture of you know, if everybody felt like they belong, how would we know? What would it look like? What would we be, what we'll be doing, what will be, what will be different? And you're right. It's through, you know, it's not just, you know, the one off initiatives. It is about the policies. It is about the the way that we do things, the rules, the regulations we have, you know, even things like, like events. You know, I'm fed up of events that, firstly, in London, all the time, if you work for a corporate, you get a discount if there's more than one of you, but if it's just you, you pay, pay full whack, unless you've got the early bird, you know, even things like recently, we raised some concerns about concessions with the RICS, because they got rid of the part time concession. There was a bit of an uproar. And it was women who led that that conversation, even though not many of them were actually affected. You know, it were. There were a lot of men, a lot of people nearing retirement, who were just one or two days a week, you know. So, so it was, it was good for all to raise it, even though women were the ones who were a bit more vocal, shall we say. So, I think so it's really interesting. I think the the. Where we find ourselves now and and what do we need to stop doing? What do you need to start doing in order to move forward? And I guess that's where plug for your book comes in as a guide to start to to, you know, to start moving these, moving these things forward, because it's incredibly disheartening. You know?
Marsha Ramroop 35:24
Yeah, I mean, the one of the key things I tend to say is that it's inclusion for all, or it's not inclusion at all, and that essentially no demographic is outside the concept of inclusion. And so to your point, when you have policies, procedures and practices that are from an inclusive lens, rather than diversity or identity lens, that one policy tends to benefit so many people, when you when you realize you've made a shift in the way that something can be done, whether it's remuneration, whether it's hybrid working, whether it's job share, whether it's progression, all these different things they are fundamentally the way that things can actually change for The better is when you have an inclusive perspective. So
Marion Ellis 36:22
Marsha, I want to ask you about the book. And firstly, I want to congratulate you this book. Yeah, this book, this one. I want to congratulate you on the on the book launch. So you very kindly invited me. And I'll be honest, Marsha, I thought I was going to turn up at, I don't know, some Waitrose and you reading a bit of a book. I don't know what to expect. I've not been to a book launch before, but it was brilliant, and it's recorded, so I'll put a link in the show notes for anybody who wants to watch it. But it was, it was a really fun event. It was brilliant. I spoke to so many different people, but so many different things. It had a really good vibe. And you know, the way you're sort of sharing your story and your motivation for the book, it was really inspiring. So I had a really good time. So thank you for that
Marsha Ramroop 37:18
good tell me, well, you're quite welcome. I mean, it was, it was like 11 months in the planning, but, yeah, I'm glad. I'm delighted that you had a good time.
Marion Ellis 37:30
Yeah, that's not me just saying, Oh, thanks for a great party. But as part of that, tell me a bit about the process of writing the book. I mean, I understand the motivations behind it. You've, you know, just from the conversation we've had. But how did you find writing the book?
Marsha Ramroop 37:48
Yeah, it was actually far more straightforward than I anticipated. I don't I never, ever thought I would write a book. I put that right out there. So anyone who thinks that they've got something that they need to say, give it a go. Because actually, you know, I was that person where I didn't ever think I could or would write a book. But after I did riba radio, as I mentioned a little bit earlier, the the stuff to support the inclusion chart at the Riba, I had such rich material, I thought, well, obviously, obviously, this lends itself to a book. And actually, what I came up with first, which I think a lot of people don't, and maybe why they struggle, I came up with the structure first of what I wanted to say and the order in which I wanted to do it. So I want to obviously talk about behaviors first, and then go on to the policies, procedures and practices across the what I call the four pillars, attract, retain, create and engage. So that came first, and once I had the structure, actually, it flowed really quite well. I mean, it was, I didn't struggle to write it. I did. I did wonder where the bits were a bit boring. So, for example, the the chapter on attract and retain, which is essentially about, and I realized that there are a lot of surveyors who are just, you know, single sole traders, or, you know, just part of just two person teams and things like that. They might not think, Oh, this is particularly useful. But that particular chapter on attract and retain, which is about, you know, your workforce life cycle and paying people and recruitment and all that kind of thing, might seem a little bit irrelevant. But actually, when you're going through it, you realize there are always things that you can pick up. But writing that I did, I was writing it, and it was, it was a little bit procedural, or it felt like procedural that, and had lots of bullet points in it, trying to make bullet points into some cohesive, cohesive and useful narrative. I did worry about that. But, um. And my editor said no, that it was compelling and interesting and all those things. So, yeah, I the actual process wasn't as difficult as I thought it was going to be. It just took a long time because I had to stop a few times for various reasons, and I wanted to get it out a lot sooner. I had wanted it to be out much earlier this year, but it's out anyway. It's out now. And I was just, I always have feel an urgency around these things that, you know, people need to have this information, give it to them soon. So so let me, I suppose I want to say what the book is about. I mean, it makes sense that it's obviously, it's about inclusion. So building inclusion or subtitle A Practical Guide to equity, diversity and inclusion in architecture and the built environment is just that. It's a practical guide. It's supposed to be a useful manual that people can have to hand if they're thinking, how, how do I like what is, what is EDI even about? Why? Why do I need to think about it? And then what? What are the sort of outcomes that I need to be aiming for? And how do I get there? And you literally can pick it up, and you can flick to, you know, something about inclusive recruitment, this and this that's in there. And there's a bit of a case study of people who do it well. Or if you're thinking, if you're feeling uncomfortable about discussing something, then you can go into chapter three, and it talks about motivations and how to deal with discomfort. Or if you're wondering how to do client engagement or community engagement, go into chapter seven, and you can and you can jump to these places, but I do recommend that people do start at the beginning and at least read chapters one and two about some of this sort of behavioral principles and so on, before then going to the policies, procedures and practices later on in the book about the application. But yes, it's, that's what it's there for and and it's, it's says it's for architecture in the built environment. But actually, I've had people from outside the sector who who picked it up because they work in Ed and I and tell me how incredibly useful it is, whatever the sector, because it's about behaviors, and everyone's a human, and they have behaviors. And because it's about behaviors, that's why I think it's so, it's reason to give us hope that we can create change, because what I tend to say is that we we are completely responsible. We have complete control over our own behaviors. And so if we can have a framework with which to help us do that more inclusively, that's entirely within our hands to change. And so I always tend to say, if you can change your world, you can change the world. And that is what this book, I hope, will help people to do.
Marion Ellis 42:59
It is a really practical guide. I like it for a couple of reasons. You've got some QR codes which link to lots of useful information, articles, you know, videos, all sorts of stuff which is truly helpful and and, yes, once you've sort of gone through the first couple of chapters, you can dip in to the different sections, policies and procedures. Sounds really boring to some, but, you know, you dip in when you where you need to. But because it's a practical guide, it's an enabler, you know, and with it being a framework, it's just the start, and it's just to help people sort of get unstuck or to move forward. And I really like that. I like CPD guides. You know, the work that the training that I do always talk about, you know, CPD can apply today. You know, it's something that you can read through, take action, do one small thing, and you've done something that you didn't do, do the day before. So that, I think that's really and you obviously put a lot of time, you know, to resource that and get all of those, those bits and pieces together. So, yeah, really, really important. Can I ask you, and we mentioned it a bit earlier on, about cultural intelligence and your sort of views on that, or how you've put that or how you've put that together, because I think that's really important.
Marsha Ramroop 44:22
Yeah, well, yes, it's my I mean, I would describe cultural intelligence as my area of expertise, and I'm delighted to say that people who run sort of the academy, if you like, of cultural intelligence, they also say I'm an expert in it as well. So I guess that's means I actually am so cultural intelligence, I described it very briefly earlier. So the definition of it is the capability to work and relate effectively across difference, and if you consider as a human whether you want to have. That capability or not, I like to think that most people would want to have that capability. So it's also known as CQ. So Q stands for quotient, which is a measure as well as an improvable skill. So you might have heard of IQ, which is like a measurement of intelligence, and then EQ, which is a measure for emotional intelligence. Well, CQ is a measure a cultural intelligence quotient, and the actual research question behind it is, what's the difference between those that succeed in today's multicultural, globalized world and those that fail? So what's the difference between success and failure when you want to work and relate effectively across difference? And the research has been done now across, you know, hundreds and 70 countries around the world, more than 300,000 people across the world have have taken this measure, and consistently, the results come back that you need four capabilities if you want to be effective at working and relating across difference. And those four capabilities are drive, knowledge, strategy and action. And drive is your motivation. Do you actually want to work and relate effectively across difference? And you know, like I say, most people say they want to, but when you're fearful, when you're defensive and when you're uncomfortable, those things can stop you being motivated. So how do you motivate yourself? And not only how do you motivate yourself, but when you get things wrong, which you will because we all do, how do you pick up your yourself off the ground and dust yourself off and continue and try again? Because it's important that we do go through that discomfort of getting things wrong or fearing getting things wrong. So the mistakes piece is really important to understand what we call self efficacy, to be able to work forward and then that's just the first capability. Second is knowledge, what you need to know about living experiences that are not only very different from your own, but just also as a surveyor, that is like a culture which needs to work with architects. So those are things that need to be navigated. Or as a as a sole trader, how do you work in partnership with a bigger practice and or even with your clients? Those are different cultures that need to be to understood and navigated, the language as well of surveying very, very particular language that isn't understood outside. So, you know, those are different things that need to be understood and navigated. And then, as a leader, leadership, not only a lot of leaders flex their style due to situations, but do you ever flex your style for different cultures? This is a bit what I call the biggest piece of the puzzle is CQ knowledge, because you can never know everything about everything and everything about everyone, and so you need to surround yourself and listen to that diversity of experience that's very different to your own. But that's not enough, because if you're motivated and you have some knowledge, and you go straight into action without stopping to think about what you're thinking about to be hugely self aware. So what does it feel like to be a survey surveyor from I don't know, Knight Frank, that feels like a certain way when you're then in a situation with a client or or with a developer. But if you're you know, if you, if you just feel like you're small cog, you may not recognize some of the power dynamics that might be at play, gender dynamics. Think these kind of self awareness pieces, but checking your assumptions and planning for interactions so that that piece of the puzzle called CQ Strategy is hugely important, because it's there that we create the procedural changes to mitigate bias, systemic and personal bias, and then ultimately, the fourth capability, action. People judge us on our behaviors. And so people who are high in CQ Action have a broad repertoire of adaptable behaviors in order to be effective at working and relating cross difference. But as i The point that I make very strongly in the book is that CQ Action is about adaptability, but it's about choosing to adapt. So it's not about hiding who you are, and because that's not the purpose of cultural intelligence. This is all about effectiveness and working relating across that difference. And you're choosing to adapt because it feels like the right thing for you to do when we think about, you embed that into organizations? Yeah,
Marion Ellis 49:24
yeah. Well, I would say, when we think about strategy, you know, we think about organizations coming up with a plan how we're going to manage all of our employees. But as you were, were explaining there, I'm thinking well as as an individual, you, if you work for yourself, you, you know you and so I'm thinking of the resi surveyors out there doing valuation and Building Surveying has home buyers and Building Surveying reports, and you know, they'll need to liaise with the estate agents who we always have run ins with. You know, they've got their clients, they've got their. Their RICS, their regulatory bodies, their VA you know, there's, even, if you work for yourself, there's still a diverse range of people and organizations that you'll be interacting with. And I always say, you know, residential surveyors. When we walk into people's homes, you walk into their lives, you know, and it can be quite intimidating, you know. And then you've got the cult cultural side of it. Do the shoes come off or not, you know? You know. So there's a lot around that, and we can bring bring awareness to it, but these are the kind of things which make a difference. And I think the more that you can exercise that muscle, you know, of understanding. And, you know, all the things that you that you've talked about, actually, as individuals, we have much, much power, much a lot of things that we can, that we can do to bring about change. And so it's not for the corporates and the bigger businesses to, you know, to to fix and to come up with a plan. And you know, we work for ourselves and and we're isolated to for that because, you know, we're trying to do a good job. We're not being mean to any, anybody you know. And all the stories that we that we tell ourselves, it's much wider and much bigger than that. And you know, earlier on, we talked about, or I mentioned, you know, managing, you know, a diverse group of people around the table. And if I think about our ICs and its committees and boards and regional boards and working groups and all of those things, it's exactly the same, you know, of really tuning in to, you know, do we want to make change? What is the difference that we need? You know, do we have a plan? You know, how do we communicate or not, and sometimes it's even simple things. Like, you know, a friend of mine was involved in working writing up a piece of paper for our ICs. He cannot work Microsoft Word with the comments and the and the variation and the changing, but we all have to use it, you know, and what an a bigger organization uses, and what an individual uses, and software and tech and things we've got access to. So it's on all sorts of different levels. That's why I always come back to customer experience, you know, and pulling those those things. So on lots of different levels, we can really, we can really do something. I just want to ask you about getting it wrong and failure. I know certainly for my myself. I know a lot about failure, dealing with complaints and claims. I've made loads of mistakes myself and and it's always now we know we do. We do better when it comes to sort of the whole EDI, sort of sector, they can be quite unforgiving when there's a mistake made, and that can be really hard for someone who's trying to recover from and it just makes us really want to move, move back for it. I've certainly learned a lot through my women in surveying journey and whether that's the right thing to do. You know, it started out as an initiative, it's been interpreted by others as, you know, an organization. And does it exclude men and all of all of those things. And sometimes I've said the wrong things in the wrong way. And we don't always mean to, but we want to be able to sort of kindly say to somebody, that's not how we say things, or that's not the way that we do things now, rather than the aggressive, you know, do things differently, but it's, it's quite hard to recover from, you know,
Marsha Ramroop 53:40
yeah, yeah, yeah. It's very, it's, it's, I think there are a couple of things there. The first thing is, is the gap between intention and impact, and the second is around the way that, you know, people could just not be as forgiving as they could, and jumping down, you know, people's throats when they get it wrong, when they make a mistake. So let's talk about the gap between intention and impact. I think ultimately this, this is what it comes down to, and this is, this is when there is a framework in the book. And actually this, I've taken a lot of the frameworks from of those conversational frameworks from chapter three, and I've made them into a separate resource called having necessary conversations. So if someone does make a mistake, and you feel offended by the mistake that they've made, how to then what I call call them in for the conversation, rather than necessarily call them out, necessarily depending on you know the circumstances is this person making the same mistake over and over again, and you've told them about it before, and they still not doing anything different? That is possibly because they don't have the framework for how to deal with their mistakes. But it could be just because they're belligerent, in which case you're probably more likely to call them out than call them in. But for those who genuinely. You've got. Sometimes it takes a lot of patience on behalf of the person that is feeling affronted by the mistake to say, Look, can we have this conversation a particular way? But there are constructive ways to have these conversations, and I talk about describing the behavior, the impact that it had, how it made you feel, and therefore how you want them to do things differently in future. As someone who's listening to receiving that feedback, the first thing is, it's going to be uncomfortable for you just recognize it's going to be uncomfortable, and leading to that discomfort, because then you'll learn and grow. But if you realize you've made a mistake, or you've been told that you've made one, I talk about, you need to acknowledge that mistake. You need to listen to the impact that it's had, recognizing, okay, your intention was one thing, but there's a gap between what you intended and the impact that it had, and you need to listen to what that impact was. You need to learn from listening and reflect on your learning, because reflection learning is more powerful than the learning itself, and then you need to resolve to do things differently. And I tend to also add that once you've made your resolution as to what you're going to do differently, I think it's quite useful to return to the person who gave you the feedback in the first place to say, look, I've had a think about this. These are my intentions of how I'm going to do things differently in future. What do you think? And then receive some extra feedback on that. But it's really, really important that we get used to practicing the humility involved in admitting that we make mistakes. Of course, we make mistakes. We're not right all the time, and actually we shouldn't dig our heels in. And there's actually nothing wrong with changing your mind or having a different opinion once you've been given new information. The fact that we have some, some, you know, real sticklers for, for what they what believe is, is the reason why you have such problems with communication right now and just learning how to listen again, there's some framework for how to listen in the book as well. Is very, very, very important, because if we spent more time listening, we actually would be better communicators in terms of managing our mistakes. And then, of course, I have extra information in there about how to manage reputational mistakes, because when it's an organization that's making a mistake, you have to, again, listen to what the impact was, and learn and grow when you do that actually, reputationally, it's far more powerful than again, just digging your heels in or saying nothing when a mistake has been called out. And one of the things I tend to say about mistakes, I tend to quote Maya Angelou. He says, Forgive yourself for not knowing something before you learnt it.
Marion Ellis 57:54
Now, the book is out there, and I know you had a sort of a call, really, for people to you know, don't just get the book and stick it on the shelf. Actually do do something with it. What have you seen? Anything yet? Is it too early to say or and what's your best hopes for this?
Marsha Ramroop 58:17
Thank you for that question, because I'm struggling with that one right now. The event was very much a call to action. I was really clear that that the book event was not about the book so much as it was about the work. How are we going to put something like the advice given in the book into action? The event happened on the 10th of October, and we're a few months on from that, and it's difficult to know whether people have taken that to heart or not. And that for me is and I did something actually just on LinkedIn this morning to say because my measure of success is, has the dial shifted? You know, are people actually actioning the work? Have I not inspired? But have I transformed? That's difficult to know whether I've done that or not, but my hopes are absolutely that not only do people read the book, but they action it. And to that point that I was making, that is and every individual, it doesn't matter what you do if you stop to take the time to reflect on your behaviors and resolve to do things differently, taking into account what I'm mentioned about. You know, diversity is simply the mix of visible, invisible, difference every everybody's part of diversity, but you start to recognize those living experiences are very different from your own. You don't have to agree with them, but respect them, value them, accept them and re. Recognize that we're all different, and there's a reason for that. We're just it's part of the rich tapestry of our lives, and we can all move forward doing something different. I guess. I don't think I ever will know whether my work is successful or not, but that is my hope, that people will take what I believe is good, useful, practical, helpful, easily, applicable advice and put it into action.
Marion Ellis 1:00:32
Marsha, it's been lovely to talk to you. Dave, thank you so much for your time.
Marsha Ramroop 1:00:37
Thank you. Thanks for having me. And you know, I really do hope that we can see some change in surveying, because I know that there are some big challenges. Oh yes,
Marion Ellis 1:00:52
thanks for listening. Don't forget to take a look at the show notes to follow up on any of the links and resources. You can also find more training webinars and workshops for surveyors by visiting my website at WWW dot love surveying.com and if you found this helpful, you can show your support by recommending the podcast to others, leaving a review or simply buying me a coffee. I'll see you next time you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
