Sam Nicholson 0:00
Jumped in with both feet, and that was joining as much CPD as I could, speaking to as many people. And that's where the APC study group came from, because I was by myself doing it, and I probably went off on a tangent and went down the wrong route, and was getting almost wasting my time and doing things in the wrong order. And at first, there was four or five of us in a network, and we'd speak every now and then, and we'd have a call every few weeks. It was very informal, but that, over time, grew arms and legs to what it is today. But that will stem from a selfish requirement and saying, Look, I need to understand what I don't know and make sure that I'm on a similar path to others.
Marion Ellis 0:33
Welcome to the surveyor hub Podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do. I'm Marion Ellis, and today on the podcast, I'm catching up with Sam Nicholson, a building surveyor based in the North East, recognized as mentor of the year in 2023 Sam has previously served as matrix chair and actively supports literally hundreds of young professionals in the surveying industry with his APC community. I hope you enjoyed the podcast. So tell me, for those that don't know, and I can't imagine, there's many, particularly those on the APC, a newly qualified who don't know you. Where do you work? Tell us a bit about the work you do
Sam Nicholson 1:17
now. Yeah. So I'm a charter buildings fair, and I work for company up in Newcastle called Wakefield's charter building space. We do a whole host of mix of both commercial and residential work, all single consultancy and all old building space. The product the work that I'm involved at, specifically at the moment, is quite a lot of dilapidations and a lot of project work, which includes statutory requirements in terms of planning and building control, and then the delivery of the project in line with with a contractor to deliver whatever the client's project is in that scenario starts taking up the majority of them at time, at the moment, a whole host of other works in addition to that, such as party wall works, surveys, defect inspections, some development work as well. But yeah, it peaks and troughs, and we kind of Sway left and right, just depending on our client's requirements.
Marion Ellis 2:16
And have you always done this kind of work, or have you been in other areas of surveying flavors.
Sam Nicholson 2:22
I've always done this type of work in terms of surveying, but I had a career change in my almost on my 30th birthday, from it from a different career. So before, so working all the way backwards. So I left school and I got my degree in building today. I did a placement year, and I did a small, small section of employment for a local SME, which was good. So that was kind of the shoe being on the other side, working for the for the client, as it were, as opposed to, maybe in a different aspect. So I did a little bit of that, and then I maybe got itchy feet, let's say, and thought, well, I don't want to kind of settle down, as it were. Now, I still got a few things that I wanted to do, so I moved to the French Alps for three years. I spent my time between the the mountains in the winter, and then I used to go down to the southwest of France in just north of Bay. It's a place called Oscar, in the summer, to spend as much time on the beach as possible. A little bit of work in between that. But it was, I think, works, a stretch of the word. There wasn't much work and a lot more, a lot more relaxing, let's say. And it was great, but not a particularly sustainable lifestyle. And off the back of that, I got a job with Maersk, the Danish shipping company. And a subsidiary of Maersk is Maersk training, and they train people who work on oil and gas, offshore oil and gas platforms, as well as renewable energy, so offshore wind. So I worked for mace for five years, delivering the training for emergency management for offshore wind farms, which was really interesting and had lots of travel, particularly across majority of Europe. But I got to a stage where it wasn't what I wanted to do forever. So I did some work experience at Wakefield, where I am now, and I was fortunate enough to to be offered a job. And then that was five and a half years ago, and yeah, and it was full steam ahead ever since then.
Marion Ellis 4:32
See, this is why I love this podcast and chatting to people, because I think in my head, I just assumed that wrongly, that you'd done your degree and you got a job, and, you know, you just sort of go through the typical path, but you took a good couple of years out, which is, it sounds like it was a good a lot of fun.
Sam Nicholson 4:54
It was, yeah, and it was, I think, the benefit. Fit of all of those extra things that I've done actually made me a more rounded individual and definitely a lot better of a communicator, which for, specifically for my job, there's a lot of technical knowledge, which is great. You can either have the technology, technical knowledge or you don't, but you can look it up and you can find it and and that's achievable. But the softer skills, in terms of the communication, the people management, I think that from the diverse range of jobs that I've had, in addition to all host of other jobs during and before University, I think that the side benefit of that that I wasn't aware of is definitely helped me
Marion Ellis 5:37
and and from the from what I know of you and and things you, you often come across as very confidence. I'm sure you're not, haven't been all the time, and aren't always, but you always come across as quite, quite a confident person and and that makes sense now, actually, if you've got that different experience of of life, really. And I remember, so I took a few years out before I did my degree, and then I got into a graduate scheme with a big construction firm, and because I'd worked, you know, real life in between. I remember, on one of the first days, there were six of us, and everybody was worried about answering the phone, I was thinking, Geez, how am I going to last 18 months if I'm worried about is answering the phone, but it does just give you that little bit of confidence that, you know, I'm sure it I was insecure in other ways, but I wasn't worried about talking to people or or anything. So it does make a does make a difference. So, yeah,
Sam Nicholson 6:38
small things like answering the phone, it's, I think it's, it's quite easy to to put those sort of things on a pedestal, and the less you do it, the bigger it gets an issue. And then if you take the first phone call by yourself, and then maybe a stepping stone to do it in front of someone else, but nobody. It's that. It's that concern of embarrassing yourself, and nobody wants to embarrass yourself, I think, especially in an office environment now that offices are open plan, but I guess you just have to, it's not going to disappear, so you just have to get on with it and get used to it and get comfortable
Marion Ellis 7:10
with it. And actually you just maybe reflect, because, you know, the office environment that I started in very different to the one that you started in, but as we're here in 2024 and I'm talking about answering the phone, actually, I can't remember last time I heard a telephone call. It's usually zoom, isn't it? Or messages very Yeah, it is. Use those skills, even if it's talking to your granny, to remember how to answer
Sam Nicholson 7:39
the exactly the phone.
Marion Ellis 7:40
Tell me about working offshore. Were you actually off offshore, or was that on dry land?
Sam Nicholson 7:51
But working so the majority of it was, yeah, the majority of it was, was on shore. And there's, there's, there's two sides to it. One of one was that occasionally we would go to the wind farm and deliver the training at the wind farm, but on the onshore side of it, because it's easier to send one person to either review the procedures, deliver the training, whatever that the delivery was, as opposed to sending 12 or 15 people to where I am. So it was easier to send me than to send all those to other people, but that depending on what the course you're delivering, depends on how easy it is to move, to move resources to where you are, and that was part of part of my remit and part of my input training of having a mobile training set. So it's all well and good delivering leadership training and communication training, as we've just discussed there. But actually you still need the additional skills which are industry, industry standard or industry requirement in terms of rescue training. So if somebody breaks their leg up the top of the wind turbine, how to actually get them out. So you need to have a mock wind turbine with ladders and and and all of the correct anchor boats and things like that, to go through the procedures for the for the operatives to get comfortable of how they're going to rescue their colleagues. So a lot of the training was in, was in Newcastle, but then I spent a lot of time on the West Coast, basically anywhere in Europe, where there's a large off, generally offshore wind farm, there'll be and there'll be a hub, whether that's onshore and it's 20 miles away, or whether the one that's in just around the corner from us at the moment in Newcastle, the boat comes out the timing and it goes south down at Dogger bank. So that's a good a good distance. I'm not sure what the distance is, but so the majority of the training people a mix of us going to them and us going coming the other way. And that was, yeah, very interesting. Definitely. At the time that I joined, it was a growth sector, wind energy and renewable energy being such a big push. So we are very interesting to see see that develop in tandem with the oil and gas stuff. But that's maybe a bit more of a established. Sector. So
Marion Ellis 10:01
did you go into the role as a training manager? Or how did your APC and getting qualified fit into that?
Sam Nicholson 10:12
So, so I didn't do any APC stuff straight after university. I didn't even log any APC stuff during my placement at university. But after my hiatus in France, and then coming back the connection, or the crossover, was that I was and have just recently left part of my local lifeboat, so in terms of the emergency management, the training and the offshore response, then if something does go wrong on the wind farms. The wind farms got their own emergency response, but they might be calling on the Coast Guard and the lifeboat. So that was the crossover, in terms of the understanding that the delivery of, well, how does it actually work? It's good having something written down on paper, but actually somebody's broken their leg, back to that previous example, and how do we actually get them to the hospital? So that end goal, so there's a bit of a bit of work in the middle to connect all of the dots. Well,
Marion Ellis 11:05
okay, so lots of questions there, you just remind or maybe sort of think about the practical side of things, because so much is on paper. And my husband works in transport. I remember him saying, personally, I think it's quite a boring sector, but so he doesn't listen to this podcast. So that's all right. But I remember him saying, you know, they had, like, some young graduates in that in the office, and they were, you know, on CAD designing, you know, how a, you know, the the turning turning a road, and how a car would, you know, would turn. But because they don't drive lots of them, you know, in London, they get the tube everywhere that not everybody drives, they had no idea what it was actually like to turn that corner, you know, on a on a steep incline. And so the reality of it makes, can make quite a difference. So tell me about the work on the lifeboat and the RN. Li, how did you get involved with that? That sounds very brave and very interesting. So I
Sam Nicholson 12:12
I think, well, maybe I'm going to do myself, sell myself short here. I think the RN allies marketing is, is very good, and I is saying, it's very brave, is a huge compliment. But I kind of, I see it in a slightly different light, that that it's actually, it's quite exciting and rewarding from it, from a different train of thought. So I in between summers at university, and I live down the I've always lived down, generally down the coast. I used to lifeguard on the beach in the summer, so I had, again linked to the lifeboat. There's a bit of a connection all between that. But as as as I was growing up, my father was on the lifeboat, so I always had an understanding, and I was always around the lifeboat. So as I started my lifeguarding and became competent as the years went on, more compliment as years went on. Then it was an obvious crossover to try to try the lifeboat. So I joined when I was 19. I think 1819 just sorry, maybe 1920 but, and I've just, for various reasons, just finished my current turn. So I did 15 years. And yeah, there's only so many hours in the day, so something had to give, but maybe one for the future again. But yeah, so I did 15 years at my local light boat station. And it was, it was incredible, really rewarding. You have the good days and you have the bad days, but, but overall, it was a great experience. And again, back to the communication. I definitely had a lot of benefit from from being in those intense situations and knowing how to talk to people and and having the the difference between asking a crew member to do something or telling them to do it, depending on how time critical what was going on is, is a good contrast to have and and definitely cross over to what I'm doing now
Marion Ellis 14:03
from a young age, it's, that's quite, um, yeah, whilst it's exciting and the adventure, and I've got visions of Baywatch and all of that in my head, but you know, it's, it's quite a, I would imagine it's quite a mentally demanding thing to volunteer. You know, you're dealing with rescue and life and death situations. You know, how did you
Sam Nicholson 14:25
it is? It is, and the the RNA is very good at its trainings world class. It's, there's only so much you can train for, though, the first time that you, unfortunately, the nature of volunteering, the nature of the of the work, as it were, that you're going to come across some pretty unpleasant things, and you can predict how you think you might react, but you only the proofs in the pudding in terms of how you act when you see or come across those sort of things. And I'm fairly fortunate that it hasn't affected me in the last 15 years come across a fairly, fairly. And, no, not particularly nice things, but I might join in in 10 or 15 years and come across something and say, Actually, I don't want to do this. It's not very nice, and it's just too much, depending on what it is. So I'm quite fortunate that by I think it's purely by chance. I don't think you can actually train that much for that sort of things without having a full time role, like being in the armed forces or something similar.
Marion Ellis 15:24
And I guess a lot of it is about the support that you have have around to do these roles, whatever, whatever it is, because you can have, you know, to do a job, you need to have the technical ability and to learn how to do it, the context of it, empowered to do the job, but you need to have the wisdom to know what to do in the moment. And that's the whole, you know, do I panic? What decision do I make? Am I making the right decision or not? And we can all feel that in, you know, in rescue situations. But even, you know, you're on site, you see something. Do I tick that box? Do I write this down? Do I advise that, and that sort of hesitation and that imposter syndrome, for a bit of a description, sort of comes in as to you start to doubt yourself, you know, so it's quite it's really important to keep on trusting your gut instinct and and knowing yourself well and your your abilities, and yes, how technically competent you are or physically, but sometimes you don't know how good you are, because we don't test ourselves, but we don't touch the boundaries. If that, if that makes sense, you know, it's like we don't You don't know what full feels like, unless you've got a hungry tummy, for example. You know, sometimes you gotta get close to it. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. Tell me about the getting into training then and actually training people, because I know, you know, we'll talk about your work with with APC and supporting candidates in a minute. But had you So, had you gone directly into a training role, or did it evolve from, from your your works, have you always done training?
Sam Nicholson 17:04
No, no. So this was the, this was the first formal role that was, was training. And then back to the the comments, the comment you made earlier, in terms of answering the phone, then this was the first role where I was standing up in front of a group of anywhere from two to 30 or 40 people and saying, Look, this is what we're going to do, and this is how it's going to so all eyes were on me. So it was, it was intimidating for the first few times, but that was the job, and that was what I was doing. So I just had to get comfortable with it and a lot of preparation. I'm hyper conscious to filler words. Now, I used to have a strange tick where I'd scratch my shoulder, where I got nervous, or I'd say m or R or so. I'm very conscious of those, and that's just through that being in that environment. It's, yeah, it was an interesting, an interesting first few weeks, almost thrown in at the deep end, but actually it was a benefit. Oh,
Marion Ellis 18:00
right. So this is really, this is really, this is really interesting, because it's some, some people absolutely hate presenting their idea of health standing up in front of people. And I know a lot of candidates when they're doing their APC interviews. You know that first 10 minutes of doing the presentation is really, really hard. And I remember the first time I had to give a presentation in front of 700 people or so. I think it was through my role. I was expected to present at the conference. Nobody asked me, Can you do it? Have you ever presented like this before I was well, what I did, actually, is I found someone to help me project my voice a bit more and to do some presentation skills. I'm not sure whether it helped or not. I just threw in the end, sometimes you just throw yourself self into it, but that, but it's quite a hard thing to do. So when I come back to this sort of confidence that you have of, yeah, you know, it was hard. I prepared, but I just went and went and did it, whereas thinking, Oh my god.
Sam Nicholson 19:10
Well, I think the reality is maybe a bit different to how I'm portraying it. But it was definitely, I was definitely nervous and and probably fumbled my way through the first few weeks, but then through the repetition, I wouldn't say, I'd say, I come across a lot more confident than I probably feel. Yeah, so the reality and perception are two very different things. A
Marion Ellis 19:34
lot of it is in your is in our head when we're presenting, and if it's you know, for tips and things, for people out there, as you get older, you get to a point we don't really care. That's, that's my motto, functional, not too embarrassing. You know, if I say the wrong thing, if I start fidgeting, if I do it just is, as you get older, don't, don't worry. About it so much so, when did you do your fresh
Sam Nicholson 20:04
fresh out of school, even being at the tail end of school? And maybe not so much well, maybe in university, doing presentations, university generally, not much fun, and nobody enjoys them. But looking back in hindsight, the benefit of just those small practices what you need and what it's going to
Marion Ellis 20:24
be, and the more opportunity you can expose yourself or get to speak to people and communication, whether it's talking to, you know, a small group or a big group, it'll all stand you in good stead. Tell me about your your APC, and how you when you did that, and how you found that process was that the Building Surveying pathway?
Sam Nicholson 20:46
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So linking it back to my career change. So I came back to surveying after six or seven years of no surveying, and I was very conscious of all my university classmates were charted in senior positions and working their way up in terms of where the companies are. So as soon as I changed careers, I almost felt like, and this is self imposed, I almost felt like I needed to catch up, that I was behind, way behind the curve, kind of 10 years behind what I would class as my, my cohort, my alumni. So I kind of, I jumped in with both feet and said, Look, well, this is where I am. This is what I need to do. I need to do it as soon as possible, and I need to get it right first time, being at a smaller firm where my colleague Heather was probably the last person to go through it, and that was maybe eight years ago when I started, kind of 10 years ago. Now, the process has completely changed. They probably hadn't thought about the company, and everyone in the company probably hadn't thought about it in years and years. I had a colleague who was going through but they were using a slightly different route. So, yeah, I jumped in with both feet, and that was joining as much CPD as I could, speaking to as many people. And that's where the APC study group came from, because I was by myself doing it, and I probably went off on a tangent and went down the wrong route, and was getting almost wasting my time and doing things in the wrong order. So by creating and at first, there was four or five of us in a network, and we speak every now and then, and we'd have a call every few weeks, and it was very informal. But that, over time, grew arms and legs to what it is today. But that will stem from a selfish requirement and saying, Look, I need to, I need to understand what I don't know and make sure that I'm on a similar path to others. So So I was on the Building Surveying route, the 24 month structure training route, and by the time I sat, so I missed, I missed a submission by a few weeks in terms of diary recording, just because of when I started at the company. And so I ended up doing about two and a half years before I submitted, and then I was the one of the cohorts that the in the winter, where the interviews dragged on from November, and I ended up getting assessed in January. So it kind of it ended up being just under three years and kind of start to finish, just because things dragged on. I guess it's like,
Marion Ellis 23:23
Hmm, for those that don't know, the APC study group, so that's the WhatsApp group that you've got. Explain a bit about that.
Sam Nicholson 23:31
So it stemmed from this requirement for me to understand. It was originally a group of five of us, which is now, well, there's a there's a generic group, and then a quantity surveying group in the general group, which is aimed at building surveying, but covers all the mandatory complete season teams and study sessions. I think there's somewhere in region of 790 somewhere towards 300 so that, yeah, it all revolves around this Whatsapp group, which is just there as a community for people to share questions, especially the moment when people go through their interview, it's fairly active. It peaks and troughs. Definitely around interview in terms of how active it is, but people asking questions in terms of, how was your interview? What did you ask? What do you do about this? What do you do with your submission? And it's just a forum, especially then everybody will have it on their phone to just ask a quick question, and it's organic now that somebody will answer it, especially somebody who's in the thick of the process as well. So it slowly grew arms and legs. But in addition to this Whatsapp group, the output is all the questions and answers. But there's a study session, a study call on a Tuesday, a Wednesday and a Thursday, and they are all specific competencies that we're going to talk about. Let's say on a Tuesday, it's always a mandatory competency. We're going to talk about health and safety. Everybody turns up with five questions and answers. You ask them to the group, and then we talk about the health and safety Work Act, or something to do with HSC and F 10 and reporting and CDM. And it's really good. Fair enough this questions and answers aren't necessarily going to be linked to your submission or your experience, but it's really good to gain that broader knowledge of something that you might not have heard of before. So it's that it's immersing yourself in that environment. And each six months, the group that they're at the point the end of submitting and they're interested will disappear. Some people have come off the group, and I knew, I knew a new set of people will come in. And it's at the moment, it's fairly organic, that it runs itself, and I have very limited input. I just need to steer it left and right every now and then. But yeah, it all stems from that, maybe not selfish, but that requirement for me to see what everybody else was doing and understand and get some practice, I think you,
Marion Ellis 25:47
I think you undersell, actually, how how good it is, and the difference that it, that it makes, what you've created is a is a community. And community isn't just WhatsApp groups, Facebook groups and things. Community is just, you know, feeling that you belong and you're you're part of something, and having a space where people can say, I've got my interview, oh my god, or I've come across this. What do I get asked questions or whatever is, is really important. It's kind of thing that makes us human, that you know, that we have got these worries and fears, and I hang out in there because it makes me feel young and keeps me connected to the, you know, the conversations that's going on. And sometimes I think I have no idea what that means. And at the time, I think, yes, I got it, I know. But what's really nice is that sense of community. And you're right. So as we're recording this now, interviews are going on, people are asking for help, their worries, but they're being really reassured by by others who are at different stages of their their their careers. And it's just a really nice thing to, uh, to see happening within the Spain community. You know that there is that that love and that endearment and cheering each other on when, when you need it so well done. You for, for doing that and and to have that many people involved is a is a big thing. There's a lot of difference that you're making
Sam Nicholson 27:21
that's that's very kind. Maybe I'm being a bit a bit British and not taking credit for something, but maybe, yeah, that's something for me to work on. I think, yeah, when, when I regularly, I get do these sort of things and get asked kind of numbers, and it, it's probably into two or 3000 of of people who have had some, some connection with it. Foolishly, I haven't tracked numbers in and numbers out. But that's not really. I don't need the data every if you've heard about it, great if you haven't, that it's, yeah, it's never going to be monetized. It's not a commercial venture. It's just there as a as a good thing to do.
Marion Ellis 28:01
That's how I feel about some of the work I've done with women in surveying. You know, it's, it's not money venture, it's not, it's not an organization, it's not a it's not a thing, it's just, it's just a space, you know, and if it helps people and, and I think, for sometimes, people struggle with with those things, because, as surveyors, you know, it's measuring, there's measuring all things, when actually it's about the impact that we make. You know, you know, I've been impacted by it, even though I'm not going through my APC, because I wouldn't want to do that again. Yeah, you know, but, but it's the impact that we that we have, and that's kind of ripple effect, and I refer people to it and and for a lot of people, sometimes just knowing that those spaces are there at point of need is enough for them to feel, well, okay, well, let's see if I can do this by myself. If not, I know there's a place to go to to get some encouragement and and support.
Sam Nicholson 28:59
Yes, someone wants to describe it to me, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna get this completely wrong, but I think they, they were talking about a measure of success. And everybody measures success in different ways, but actually being remembered for what you've done, not who you are, is a good way to think of it. So what did that person do in their lifetime, regardless of who they are and where they're from, what was their what was their output? Did they did they help people? Did they volunteer here, there and everywhere? So it's, yeah, it makes me. It makes me proud. It makes me feel good. It's, it's, arguably, it takes very, very little of my time, but it's there, and it helps, it helps a lot to people.
Marion Ellis 29:43
So you got qualified, and you set up this group, and that's, you know, continued, um, how has your work changed? Once you got, got qualified, what did you did? You start to do different work. Because you've, you've talked about, like, the variety of things. That you're, you're interested in, but did you have a few years to sort of bed in? Yeah.
Sam Nicholson 30:04
So the work I was, I was doing in terms of the type probably didn't change, but a lot more independence, which is, that's the nature of being qualified, a lot more independence and and then working off the back of that in terms of client and relationship building to progress within the company. So the work, the work we do, is fairly consistent. It's for a smallish number of clients. There's things that come in and things that go out, but generally repeat custom with similar clients that we've worked with before, or my colleagues have worked with before, prior to my time at the company. So similar type of work, just maybe a bit more independent, which is the nature of going through their EPC, being chartered, and having more experience.
Marion Ellis 30:54
I think once you get qualified, there's, it's such an intense period of studying while you're working, you know, then you got to prepare for the interview, do your submission of those things. Thankfully, the wait to get the results isn't too long. It's, was it five days a week or something after, you know, thankfully, yeah, seven days, yeah, yeah, yeah, you get an email. Now, I got it on the I got it in the post. I got, I got my results on April the first yeah, sometimes it's a, you know, sometimes you might feel that there's sort of a bit of an anti climax for some people afterwards, you know, or it's actually, I've been working so hard, and now I'm, now I'm doing the job. But there's a different set of challenges, like, you say, sort of independence, you know, doing your own being response properly, responsible for your own work.
Sam Nicholson 31:48
It's, it's very interesting. I remember the the post eight PC, probably two or three months from memory, that you almost feel lost. You feel like I should be revising. I've been, I've been revising for so long that that takes over, and it becomes everything. You kind of sat there after work doing something, and do you end up doing more work, or do you pick up your your old hobbies, as it were, that you haven't done for a year's time? And the time soon disappears and you get into a new routine. But the first, the first few months is it? Is it an irregular feeling to save at least? But there's always something else. There's always something else to do or to take the time up.
Marion Ellis 32:29
Yeah, yeah. And hopefully most people get a pay rise. I mean, well, you know what? Because you can be charged out more, and it makes a big difference. And I think that's that's something that you know as employers or other surveyors, we often forget, is that, you know, when you're on a graduate salary, I mean, I know. I know, for me, once I qualified my the next month, my salary would go up, but it meant that it took the pressure off paying my mortgage, you know. So there's a lot of as long as the work, you know, there's all the practical pressures that go, that go with it. But, yeah, tell me a bit about matrix. So you're obviously, you know, sort of interested in training, you know, getting involved in this sort of APC group that you set up. Tell me a bit more about matrix, and perhaps you can explain a bit about matrix for those who don't know. So
Sam Nicholson 33:28
matrix is was set up a while ago. Matrix is there to help those in the early stages of their career, as opposed to being a specific age group. So it's helped those in the early stages of career to network and build those networks to in the local areas. So it's all about fostering those early connections. Because arguably, the people you went to university with and the people that you have those connections with in the in the early stages of your career are going to go on to be the partners and the directors and the CEOs of the companies in the future. So it's trying to build those early connections, both within surveying. That's generally where matrix is, but actually in Newcastle we matrix Newcastle, we took a slightly different direction, that we wanted to have our surveyors events, but we also wanted inter professional events, so we had a whole host of events with solicitors and lawyers, in addition to surveyors, because we do a lot of work together, especially in in Newcastle. So that was the train of thought, but it's there to to have that early engagement and that early networking different different committees do. I hope there's always committees all across the United Kingdom, but different committees do different things, and they're all independent, as it were, we did a whole host of more active events to try and take the stereotype away from it's just drinks in a pub, and that's what it has historically been. And not all of the time. I'm being very, very, very broad brush there, but. We did a whole host of events that were every quarter we'd go to a different restaurant and hire out the whole restaurant and have some foods, whether that was some Mexican tacos or some tapas, or we did pizza making, so something where there's an actual activity. We did surfing on the beach and barbecue. We had a sports day every year.
Marion Ellis 35:19
Sorry, do you say a sports day?
Sam Nicholson 35:23
Yes, like a school sports day with an egg and spoon race and a sack sack race and a barbecue and things like that. And we've always, even in Newcastle, we've managed to get away with the weather. So far. There'll definitely be one year where it'll be rained off, but we do it at the end, September, early October, have managed to get away with it. So
Marion Ellis 35:42
this is, this is a, well, firstly, from a from, I live near what I call Middle Earth, the furthest from the sea you can get in the in the UK. And I always see on social media and various things. You know, the North East is always active. And it is always, does, always feel quite, quite vibrant and doing things differently as part of the Northern vibe. And you know, the old school of us might say, well, it's not CPD, and you could be better doing other things with your time. But there's real benefit in in those activities. They're not just fun. It's about encouraging communication between us all, isn't it? You know, we learn a lot from it, too, and we relax a little bit more, don't
Sam Nicholson 36:31
we? We do and it's, it's when I started going to these events. It was, I was just going by myself. So as soon as you've been a one or two, then you recognize some faces and you try and recall a conversation you had last time to have that common ground. And it gets easier and easier and easy, but back to the back to the analogy that we use when we talk about standing up and talking in front of people. It's it's the equivalent. I wasn't particularly looking forward to the events because I was nervous that I was a new surveyor. I didn't know very much. I didn't know anyone. But over time, it got easier and easier, and after going to the events, then I joined the committee, then I was vice chair, then I was chair, and now I've just handed it on to a set of very capable hands. But that all falls within this same, the same balance of trying to do good things to help people, and it's it's definitely benefited me professionally. I've got some great connections and some great, yeah, some, some great memories from from my time of doing that.
Marion Ellis 37:30
You mentioned being nervous to go to Network, networking sessions. And I think lots of us feel, feel like that. What tips have you got, or what would What recommendations would you give for people? Everybody's
Sam Nicholson 37:47
going to be ever so slightly different in terms of their approach or what they are. Particularly nervous about mine was that it was almost that imposter syndrome, that Am I really a severe I've just changed careers. I don't really know what I'm talking about I haven't got that much experience, so my train of thought was to try and find a common ground with whoever I was talking to. So ask them, not necessarily, and I might be unique in this approach, but people going to a networking might not just want to talk about their job and what they do, so it's trying to talk about what they're doing at the weekend to the support football team. Have they got any hobbies? Are they going on holiday? And anything that's not work related? And people generally seem a bit more interested to talk about that sort of stuff. And then you find that common ground. And I would try and remember the next time that I saw someone to recall a conversation we had last time. So let's say I spoke to someone and they were going on a holiday. The next time I saw them, I try and remember, okay, if I can't remember where they went, I would just ask them, oh, how was your holiday, or how was, how was your trip to Spain or New York or France or wherever there might have been. And then instantly, there's this that breaks down any barriers. And it's that common ground of just having something to talk about. I think maybe that's where the the networking drinks comes into. It is that after a drink or two, people probably relax a little bit. There's the potential to go too far and have too much to drink and relax too much. That always has the potential, especially with being nervous that people want to do something with you'll just keep on sipping and over and over again. So I think, sorry, I've given you a pretty poor answer to circle back in terms of, I would think it's trying to find that common ground and then building on that each time you can go with someone in a pair. Then that always makes it easier. You've got kind of someone to to lean on, as it were.
Marion Ellis 39:47
Yeah, I've just gotten a few few things down there, actually, while you were, while you were, while you were talking, because you're right. It is about finding that, that that common ground. And I think I'd say, first of all, just prepare mentally. Prepare that. Going, you know, make sure you know how to get there and come back. So it's, it's easy to go, you know, make sure you, you've got your trainers, if it's the egg and spoon race, and you got everything ready, you know. And, and, you know, when you meet people, I'm awful, awful at remembering people's names. Or, you know, I get a bit of a blank if I get flustered. And certainly used to when I was when I was younger, yeah, but trying to, you know, remember people's business cards, but making a note afterwards, you know, just a bit about what you talked about. And can help if you then go next time and you've, you've got a bit of a hint. One thing that that I found, and perhaps it's different for a woman who's not interested in football, you know, not everybody drinks as well. That's the other thing, isn't it? With with a lot of these networking events, it's around alcohol or whatever. But to I got to a point where I was found it so extremely painful going to these things, but I came up with this, the four questions I can't I can't remember what they were, but I remember writing these four questions to find that common ground. And for me, because I worked in residential, I was working in new build homes at the time, that that was the thing, you know, is, do you remember particularly, it was older people. Do you remember your first home? You know, everyone's got a story about, you know, eating pizza off the floor because they didn't have a table, and, you know, moving house and all the dramas that go, Yeah, but just finding that sort of bit of common, common ground was, it was really, yeah, really, really important, but it's, but it's quite hard to to take that first step, you know. And I think, I think embracing, when you're at these events, embracing the vulnerability of saying, Actually, I don't know anybody here, you know, people have been really supportive, and they'll, oh, they'll say, Yeah, I don't either. But now you know me, so there you go. You know, it sort of breaks the breaks it down, but it's quite hard to be, to be brave, when, actually, for a lot of us, we don't, it doesn't come naturally. We don't like doing these kind of things. Yeah,
Sam Nicholson 42:18
it's definitely tricky, in it. The more of it you do, the easier it gets. But you gotta, gotta get past that first step.
Marion Ellis 42:29
And I think knowing that you're setting the intention, and knowing that you're taking that first step, and you're doing it because and so that you can get better at networking and nobody, but there's a purpose to it. Means that, you know, hopefully you'll get more, more value out of it. We probably one of the times that we met and had a, I don't want to say drunken chat, but probably alcohol was it was involved. Was that the matrix awards, and I know you've been you won your category, but tell us about the about that and and the nomination or the application process, how you found that.
Sam Nicholson 43:10
So I I was aware of the award, and I was aware
of some of my matrix predecessors who had won the awards, or is always on my radar, and something I was interested in, I found it quite hard to get to the point of considering and then writing a submission based on my perception of, do I do I think I'm I'm a suitable candidate, one, to apply, and Two, to get anywhere near winning. So that took, that took a bit of time of of going through the process to to have a bit more self awareness, I think, and look back at what I've done, generally in surveying, but the but the the wider, the wider scope of the APC stuff and the lifeboat and some other stuff that I do in the community, that was, yeah, took a bit of time, and then I applied in 2022 and playing the numbers game, I thought, what categories can I actually apply for? And I spread myself, not spread myself in, but I applied for everything that I thought I could, I could get into. So I was fortunate enough in 2022 to to make the final for the Building Surveying and the mentor of the Year award. But in 2022 didn't get either of those, unfortunately. So applied again in 2023 but then opened a new category. So instead of two categories, I went for three. So I basically played the numbers game and kept them going. It did change my my application, and we had a good, lengthy discussion about that in terms of changing it and giving it a slightly different spin. So I applied for the Building Survey and the mentor year and the ambassador of the Year Award, and ended up winning the mentor of the Year award. One so very, very happy. But that was the last award of the night, and I. I had won the other two, so I'd almost given up, and I was like, Ah, it's not meant to be. It doesn't matter. Nobody likes not winning. I'm very, very competitive. So I was, I'd beat myself up, but I didn't win. But luckily, yeah, I managed to get it. It's up on the wall. This one up here. Put it on the wall. Very proud.
Marion Ellis 45:18
I'd forgotten, actually, that we had spoken, hadn't we? After you'd Yeah, you hadn't won, though, one out of those, those two categories, I can't remember what what we said, or what I what we talked about.
Sam Nicholson 45:34
It was, it was, it was trying to spin the application to be, to be a bit more personable. So I the benefit of this is that it's affected these people. It was trying to add that personal application, whereas I was probably
Marion Ellis 45:50
a bit, I think it was a bit more factual. Yeah, I think it was a and this is something I see with fellowship applications, award applications, uh, lots of different things as we go straight into because it reads like a bit of CV. You know, these are all the things that I've done, but you forget the human element side of it, and back to the impact that we were talking about back at the start. So, but, yeah, so, but, but, well done for for that. I think, you know, love or hate awards, I think they're certainly something that people should go for, even just the experience of entering them and doing that work. It's like a little personal development type exercise. But then to go through and the awards are always a good evening. I think they're the next one's coming up, actually, isn't it? I think it's Manchester this year. So yeah, in a week or so, time is it this week? Next week? Soon? Anyway, they come around really, really quickly. We expect to see that it's more north. Are you going this time?
Sam Nicholson 46:50
I'm not. I can't make it. I can't make it this year. I'll try and go again next year. Yeah, it's good. It's good. Fern and yeah, seem to be mixing up. So it's not London centric.
Marion Ellis 46:59
So what's what's next for you? Work wise.
Sam Nicholson 47:03
So I work wise. So became chartered, and I progressed up through the ranks of the business, and was fortunate enough, including a whole host of hard work and that extra time after APC to to be made partner this year in the business. So very, very fortunate to to to be in that position that was alongside submitting and and getting my fellowship. So this year has been a pretty busy year. And back to the the light bulb thing that I mentioned, I have had to to prioritize my time, let's say so there's a few things that matrix, being the matrix chair and being on the lifeboat that I've had to step down from at the moment. But yeah, maybe, maybe something for the future. So I Yeah, partner, partner. Earlier in the year, fellowship was a few months after that, so we were middle of the summer, so I'm kind of two or three months after fellowship. And arguably, I'm not sure what the next what the next step is, or what the next thing that I'm that I'm interested in the business development and and growing the business and moving that forward, which is, which is always going to be there, in terms of the role, considered some, some additional our ICS stuff, in terms of boards and government, Council and things of that. But I don't think I'm quite, quite there yet. So, so in summary, there's a big question mark. I'm not too sure what the next thing is, or even if there needs to be a next thing. If I looked at the last five years, if I went back five years ago and running the risk of sounding very arrogant here, of looking ahead and even forecasting achieving what I have, I think that would be very skeptical, let's say the least, but, yeah, a very busy and good five years, but not sure what the next thing is.
Marion Ellis 49:09
I think one of the things that can happen, particularly if it's taken time to get your APC as well, you know, we talked about the studying and the, you know, the anti climax, almost once you get it, is that we can be so focused on the plan, the vision where you're going to go, everyone expects you to know what you're what you're doing, is that sometimes you get to a point where you need to just be you and be a surveyor, and not to be doing things and doing The next thing, and just sort of catch your breath. You know what you what you both, what are you most passionate about when it comes to surveying? Me? Why? Why are you a surveyor? There's a tough question.
Sam Nicholson 49:56
It's a really good question. I think, I think it all stems back from and. From the from the additional stuff that they do outside or even inside of spanning. I think it's that ability to fix a problem. So somebody has a problem for specific, specifically for a building surveillance perspective, let's say they've got water ingress, or they sub damp somewhere. It's they've got a problem that they don't know the solution. And through the investigation that we can, that I can find the solution and fix the problem. So I think it stems back to that helping people which will be linked to the APC group, which will be linked to the lifeboat. So I think that all probably sits in a similar, a similar package. But why anything more than that is something for me to come back to you on I haven't, haven't had this epiphany, yeah,
Marion Ellis 50:45
and I know, I know I'm like that sometimes I think, and I have no idea why. Well, I need a glass of wine to explain why I do what I do. But that's another conversation I think it's sometimes, it's recognizing what the work you do gives you, you know, in terms of where you're spending your time, your energy, your money, you know your work, you know. What does that what does that give you? You know. So I hear lots of surveyors talking about making a difference to people, fixing things, problem solving, it sort of comes back to well, what, what does that give me? And how does that make me feel, you know? And yes, we get a good feeling from it. And but sometimes it's well, it makes us feel useful, and it gives us that sort of sense of sense of purpose, and we know where we we fit in and where we belong. And sometimes, as I say, you know, we get off the doing so much, and we need to get into well being and just take stock of how far you've come. And everybody gets to this stage in their career or life at some at some point, you mentioned the different things, and stepping back from from different things, how do you manage your work life balance? Or do you have you thought about that in the past? Or how do you manage that
Sam Nicholson 52:12
I have, yeah, I'm I'm conscious. I'm conscious of it. And there's a very, very fine balance between one having an effect on the other. I probably haven't always had the best work life balance. Sometimes it's all it feels like it's all work and not so much life. But I think especially over the course of this year, when it's been so busy, and I think everybody seems to be particularly busy at the moment, it's finding those things that you enjoy the most give you that release, or that stress relief, or that takes your mind off it. So I think, I think it's an ever evolving scale. I think I'm a lot better than I have been. But then there's nothing to say that that might not go the other way, just by by no fault of my own, in terms of it just being busy and and things that need to happen. There's also, yeah, there's, there's always the work stresses, but then there's things outside of that, that that have an additional impact, whether that's family and different people have quite different value to different things, whether that's time, whether that's a monetary value, whether that's travel time with family, everybody has a different priority list. But I think I'm, yeah, I think I'm a lot better than I have been, but there's nothing to say that that's not going to deviate within every every six months for the next 20 years.
Marion Ellis 53:43
I think, I think sometimes when we talk about work life balance, it feels like another thing that we've got to do and got and got to get right. Sometimes I, you know, I, when I work with, with my coaching clients, I talk about sort of work life integration, you know. So part of it is actually bringing yourself to your work, you know, and okay with the way that you do things, and we've but we've all got to have have boundaries, too. But I think sometimes with, you know, actually being a survey and a chartered surveyor is actually quite personal. You know, a lot of it is about who we are and what we make a stand for and the work that we do. So it's actually probably harder than ever to detach that, but just knowing, you know when it's too much, but and knowing the things that we need to do to fill our cup up that makes us feel energized, or, you know, yeah, it's all the physical stuff of, you know, sleep and all of that, but sometimes it's just doing something different and getting your rewards elsewhere. I did a podcast, actually, and I'll add a link to it in the show notes, with a chap called Ryan park on the science of men's mental health, but we talk about it from a different perspective. And. Um, but that might be quite, quite interesting for some people to listen to, if they Yeah,
Sam Nicholson 55:05
I think everybody needs to find that. Needs to find that release. For me, it's, it's doing some exercise. I really like going. So after this, I'm going to go for a run along the seafront. Look, have a look at the sea. And not that I would say I'm particularly stressed today, but I'll really enjoy. It'll be half an hour of my time. It's not gonna, it's not gonna make any difference to anything on a Friday. But actually, I feel, I really enjoy. I feel, I feel like I've achieved something, and it'll make me sleep better tonight. There's all those extra benefits.
Marion Ellis 55:35
And it's and it's doing it when you feel good. Yeah, it's doing it when you feel good, not just when you feel stressed. You know, like the like the fix, it's making sure you you maintain it. Just before we finish off, I wanted to ask you about role models. So, you know, as as women, we're always talking about women who are leadership and role models and showing the way forward. Who's inspired you? Doesn't have to be a surveyor, but who's inspired you, as you know, navigate your
Sam Nicholson 56:11
there's definitely a few people, and they're probably some are for the duration, and some are within certain periods, depending on what I've been doing and where I have been growing up, and probably during the university and when I first started serving, my role model was, was definitely my sister. She was, I wouldn't say, I'm very academic, but my sister was very academic. Knew exactly what what she wanted to do, got the grades and had everything lined up, and was, yeah, and was pretty switched on, I'd say. So that was from my early stages, but she has her own business now, and has a whole host of fairly big workforce and a big turnover and things like that. So as I've become a partner in my business, then she's still the role model. And we generally bounce ideas off each other in terms of, what were you doing for this? What about that? Whether it's something to do with a website or a phone call, or whatever it is. So she's definitely on my radar. When I worked for MERS training, I had a very, very good managing director at the time for MERS training UK, a guy called Stuart Cameron, and he was very, a very, very clever chap that would make you think like an idea that he placed in your head was your idea, and you become motivated by it. So he's very clever to get you come to the conclusion that he had already made two weeks ago, and the penny didn't drop drop for years and years and years after working that actually that's what he was doing. So he was a very motivating chap, in addition to others at that, but he was definitely one that I would that highlight. And then, in addition that, there's a chap who I've forgotten his name, and in my very, very early stages of surveying, I reached out to him because he's got his own business in London, not not building something, about his own business in London, and he does a bit of mentoring, and he's got podcasts and things like that. So I would listen to the podcast, and I would chip in as much as possible. And out of the blue, I sent him a message and said, Look, I'd love to have a caller come and meet you in London. I want to understand how you work, what the extra what advice would would be for me? And ever since then, he regularly checks in to see how I'm doing, and what about this, and what about this, and what about that? And it's very short and sweet, whether it's just a message on LinkedIn or something very, very similar, but that's hugely motivating. And arguably, there's no benefit to him, apart from maybe making himself feel, feel like he's giving back, which I think is how he's described it. But he probably unknowingly has had a huge benefit on, on on me.
Marion Ellis 58:45
And I think that's actually the key. This mystery man, whose name you'll probably remember as soon as we finish the podcast, is that, and if he's got a podcast, we'll put a link in the notes. But he's not just doing it to give back. He's doing it, because actually, it makes as a mentor, it makes you feel quite good too. You know, it's always a two way, two way relationship. And I'm sure that you mean, do you mentor people? I mean, I know you sort of support people through your group and that, yeah, a handful
Sam Nicholson 59:17
of people through their APC. It just depends on, on what's going on in the moment. I'm very conscious that I don't want to dilute what I'm offering to people. So I'm fairly selective, which is maybe, yeah, well, a good or a bad thing, but selective in terms of who, who I'm going to help and and they need to be invested in the process. There's no There's no freebies. They need to be well on their way and invested in it as
Marion Ellis 59:42
well. Mentor. Mentoring is too a but also, I think, you know, we all need to remember that sometimes it's just that nudge of encouragement that can have a huge impact, not just, you know, signing up to mentor somebody or to be a counselor or whatever it is. To get them qualified. It doesn't have to be the whole shebang, you know, even just a little nudge and a check in actually can be really powerful and encouraging and motivational, and sometimes that's all we you know, we have the capacity to do, and we should never feel feel guilty for any of that. But, yeah, I've just
Sam Nicholson 1:00:22
remembered the chap's name. I knew that would happen before I before my name, it's Rob Cohen. And the the Oh, I know. Mg, yes, I know Rob amazing. I imagine he doesn't. He doesn't know how much of how much impact he's had. He
Marion Ellis 1:00:40
is. His podcast is all about Super prime valuation, isn't it? I will pop a link in the show notes. I haven't spoken to him for very long time, but he's a lovely chap. Yeah, really good to talk to you today, Sam, thank you ever so much for joining me on the podcast. That's
Sam Nicholson 1:00:55
okay. It's been great, great to chat. It's it's good to look back and take a spot.
Marion Ellis 1:01:00
Absolutely. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to take a look at the show notes to follow up on any of the links and resources. You can also find more training, webinars and workshops for surveyors by visiting my website at WWW dot love surveying.com and if you found this helpful, you can show your support by recommending the podcast to others, leaving a review, or simply buying me a coffee. I'll see you next time you.
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