Hannah Howard-Jones 0:00
Tenants at the time, they didn't care. They just saw it that we were incompetent. We had scaffolding up. We were doing sort of water tests, you name it. We opened up. We were exposing pipe work. And yes, we found different sizes of pipe work as it went through the building. But it can be really complicated, and particularly when you're dealing with older buildings that have no as built drawings, and you've got to be a bit of a detective. So I think there needs to be a balance, and I guess surveyors have got a role certainly to play in that, and try and help kind of manage that expectation. Welcome
Marrion Ellis 0:33
to the surveyor hub Podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do. I'm Marion Ellis, and today, on the podcast, I'm chatting with Hannah Howard Jones, Director of asset management for home group, housing association with over 58,000 rented and home ownership properties, combining integrated housing, health and social care in supporting their customers to fulfill their aspirations and live independently. Hannah's a chartered residential management surveyor, and often on the podcast, we talk about our career journeys and why we do what we do. And this is certainly one of those. I hope you enjoy the podcast. So when I get guests to come on the podcast. Always get their consent. So a little Google Form to say you're happy to be interviewed, happy for me to not interview, to chat guest chat, no pressure, but happy to do this and to share, you know, on social media and things like that. And people tell me about their jobs, you know, and what they do. And I was looking at yours this morning, just as a not that I'm last minute. Hannah, you're a chartered residential Yeah, yeah. Oh, hey, this is me. You're a chartered residential management surveyor. I don't think I've met one of those before. What does a chartered residential surveyor, management surveyor, do,
Hannah Howard-Jones 2:05
I guess. Well, I hadn't. I hadn't really thought of myself as one, until an old boss of mine, he said, Well, we management surveyors, aren't we? That's our job. And I think it's probably it goes back to that. I think it's a property manager, isn't it, somebody that looks after property, looks after assets. So it's I did the residential pathway, and that was, well, I wanted to be a building surveyor, but never quite got the experience in building surveying. So I ended up going down the residential route because I was doing Property Management at the time, and I think it, it kind of just describes it. I've not really been a commercial management surveyor before. I've looked after a few commercial buildings, but residential, I'd say, is definitely my, my mastermind topic. So
Marrion Ellis 2:57
tell me a little bit about your career and how you got to where you are today? Gosh,
Hannah Howard-Jones 3:02
so I, I got I started in property, probably back in 2007 I, I went back to university in my kind of mid 20s. So I was, I guess, an older graduate then mature student, although I feel mature now, I probably wasn't, wasn't then and I did my Building Surveying degree at London South Bank as a full time as me and another full time student, most of the people On the course were kind of day release. So they were out getting all of the kind of practical experience. And we were still looking at textbooks going, what the hell is a foundation? The strip foundation or a raft foundation? Did? None of it really made sense. But anyway, and by the time I graduated, it was 2010 and the the recession was in full swing. And, you know, nobody was really hiring graduates. And I think, as I had a chat with a what was he was worked for one of the London Borough Councils in their building control. And he was very, he was very kind. So take the time to talk to me. But he said, Look, he said, we're just awash with people that have got more experience, you know, and unfortunately, we're going to take them over you, because you haven't got you haven't got any. So I took that and I said, Okay, I need to perhaps diversify a bit. And I ended up getting into property management. Friend of mine was doing the job. She was on a sandwich year. She said, look, you'll get loads of experience. You'll meet loads of surveyors. Just take it, you know, as a foot in the door. And I did, and I haven't really looked back. And I guess most property managers. Say they fell into it, whereas I'm probably the other side of cornwa, purposefully went into it in the hope that it would kind of help me on my surveying career path. Which, which it's done. And I can't, can't knock it for that.
Marrion Ellis 5:15
I'm pleased to hear that you were a mature student, because I was as well. What did you do before?
Hannah Howard-Jones 5:21
Gosh, so before I, I was running a bar in Cambridge. One of it was a, it was a sort of late night bar. It was it had one of the sort of first bars in Cambridge to have a late license. So our USP was we would be open till four in the morning. And of course, Cambridge is a student town or city, and it was great, but it was also incredibly unsociable, despite being very sociable, if that makes sense. And I just kind of realized it wasn't going to it wasn't going to give me a good balance of work life. So I went back. Decided to go back to university and study. I
Marrion Ellis 6:07
think those jobs that we have in those sort of formative years can really help shape our career and make a difference. I went back to an institute now. Now, Wrexham University was an institute, and I'd done all sorts of jobs, British Gas, BT on the phone, and I mean, office bars, lots of bars too, and it but it taught me, you know, I gained confidence in talking to the public when it came to my first graduate role, I've had a graduate role with a construction firm. I remember the other graduates, is a small group of us, and they were scared to pick up the phone and talk to people. And I was thinking, Geez, how am I going to get through 18 months of this if that's what they're what they're worried about. But a lot of the things that I learned sort of back then, you know, you don't realize, but it you it's all good stuff, everything you do, never regret any of it. It's all good stuff and good learning.
Hannah Howard-Jones 7:11
Oh no, absolutely. I think I definitely learned how to kind of talk to people and deal with people. Of course, you see people at their finest after a couple of glasses of wine or pints of beer, and it definitely helped that sort of ability to kind of talk, and, you know, just chat with people, I guess, and also you're also kind of providing a service. So you understand that people expect something they're paying for, something they expect. It's that kind of customer service piece was really invaluable. And just, I guess, the world of work, just, you know, learning to turn up on time, learning to, you know, all those kind of basic things that you know you once you've done it for a few years, you kind of understand, you know, you don't, don't have to think, but actually, when you're young and starting out, it's, it's, it's new, isn't it? It's, it's the new way of being, rather than at school, where, I guess you kind of get to roll out of bed and choose when you're going to do your homework and perhaps do it 10 hours before it's due in or something. You can't get away with that at work. Yeah,
Marrion Ellis 8:24
it is that maturity. And we often, I think, when we're recruiting people can overlook that. So, you know, we look at the qualification, the technical skills, but when I recruited people, some of the best people have had the most interesting, not just hobbies, you know, but different experience, you know. So what did they do? Well, on maternity leave, you know, not that much. You know, we all think on maternity leave, we're going to do loads of things, but you know, did you get involved with stuff and career breaks, the volunteer stuff, the different range of of jobs can really, you know, really help. And my number one top tip would be to hire somebody who knows how to bake, because then they bring in cakes.
Hannah Howard-Jones 9:06
Yes, yeah. Friend
Marrion Ellis 9:07
of mine, vivid, best cakes ever.
Hannah Howard-Jones 9:12
Yeah, a friend a colleague of mine. She, she used to run a, what do you call a baking business? She'd make cakes, and then she had her son and said it just didn't have the time for it. But I'm waiting for her to bring in some of her creations. And, yeah, I can attest to that.
Marrion Ellis 9:33
So tell me about where you work now then, and the kind of work that you do because you're a housing association now,
Hannah Howard-Jones 9:38
yes, so I work for Home Group. Home Group is a National Housing Association. We've got property all way from Scotland down to Cornwall. The number changes probably daily as we're buying and selling properties, but it's about 58,000 homes, predominantly rented. Predominantly sort of affordable, social rented homes. We've got some home ownership, we've got some shared owners and some open market long lease holders and transferees on estates that we've developed. So it's, it's, it's, like I said, predominantly rented, but you know, mix of kind of residential archetypes and lots of and a range, I think we've got stuff from the 1930s through to present day, so lots of different construction types. And, you know, for the building surveyors out there, lots of interesting and wonderful details and types of construction that we get to look at. So it's, it's, it's varied, and it's really interesting. And I spend a lot of time on the the ln er trains up and down going to Newcastle, which actually is probably easier than going into London sometimes.
Marrion Ellis 11:02
And I think housing associations, local authorities, are great places to get experience, particularly in your early years, once you've qualified, just as you described, the range of different properties that you get to see, you know, the variety. So for those out there who are, I know there's a few APC and candidates who you listen if you can't get the inspections, you know, through your valuers and those firms. You know, anywhere you can get property experiences is helpful. You just reminded me, actually, making me think, not that prepared for this podcast at the moment. You know, there's a lot in the has been a lot in the press over the past year or so with housing disrepair, you know, and the conditions that tenants find themselves in. How are you finding that landscape to navigate?
Hannah Howard-Jones 11:55
Yeah, it's, I think, I think the sector has been on a journey. I think there's been some really horrific stuff in the press. There's awabs law, which I don't know anybody that isn't sort of frantically looking at that and how to to sort of get it up and running within their organization at the moment, and that now applies to the private rented sector as well. And I think that's it's a great it's great that we've got the legislation to back up, but it's also incredibly disappointing that we need legislation to sort of tell us what to do. And I think there's certainly, from what I see from the sector. I mean, I'm, I'm fairly new to housing associations that works predominantly in the private sector and also for, not for profits, but it's, it's encouraging. There's one thing I would say, is the sector. So when there is an issue like this, either the momentum that gets behind it to sort of change, and seeing how, how rapidly that change is coming across, and the focus, I think when I when I joined home group, my role was a new role. And I think when I was talking to people at the time out applying for it. Yeah, I knew the challenges, but actually, I saw it. Somebody has always worked sort of on the other side of development and sales and being sort of taking hand over of completed properties. It's the less glamorous side. We're not the money makers. We're there to serve a purpose and and to look after to the homes, but it's not where the money rolls in. And as a result, I think historically, those functions have been sort of forgotten about. And here I am now in a position where I've got it feels that, you know, a strong wind behind me, and I don't have to fight as hard as perhaps I have had to in the past to kind of get people to understand, you know, why do we why do we need to do this, that that understanding is there. So it's not to say it's any less challenging. We've got some big challenges, but it's, it's great when people recognize the importance of of what you know, property management, asset management is and the need to do that better. Because I think, yes, you can, you can develop a building and it can look great. You can go and win some awards for architectural design and but actually the real test is how the customer, the person living in that home, feels, and how that property performs. And, you know, there will, of course, be defects and things and details that are done correctly and they need to be rectified, but it's the the ability to do that quickly so it doesn't cause, you know, huge disrepair claims and ultimately, customer dissatisfaction. Um.
Marrion Ellis 15:00
Yeah, the thing with regulation, and you're absolutely right, it's a sorry state to get to that point, ultimately, where there is regulation, you know, rules, rules, hopefully, are clear. And clear is kind. At the end of the day, when people know what they've got to do, where the boundaries are, what their responsibilities are on all sides. You know, clear is kind. It means we can go ahead and do, do what we need to do. And you're right, you know, it might not be the most money making side or the exciting if you think about all the tech and different things that are happening. But lot of people I speak to who work in this, this sector, it's very purpose driven, you know. So surveyors talk about making a difference all the time, and you've now found yourself with this new role in an opportunity to actually do that. And therefore it's quite, you know, must be quite satisfying and fulfilling, but there's still a job to do. So I hear a lot about housing disrepair claims, you know, and the no win, no fee, and some surveyors are involved in in those and sometimes Absolutely, yes, it's it's valid. But there's also the, you know, actually, should you be doing this job? Are you just taking the fee? And I think sometimes people may just need to pause, you know, context is everything,
Hannah Howard-Jones 16:20
definitely. And I think there is a risk that you know people, you know repairs, you know, there will be times where, I mean, I've dealt with repair right issues that you know, you've got to, you've got to understand the cause of the repair before you can actually fix it. And sometimes that's not straightforward. And I remember probably few years ago now dealing with it was a leak, and it was coming from the roof, and it would only happen after sort of torrential down downpours. And it turned out that the it wasn't, there wasn't a leak in the pipe, there was actually a blockage underground on an adjacent building site. So what that meant was the water was backing up in the pipe, and as it backed up, it was then springing a leak through the joints where ordinarily it would have just flown through past and it took us a good few months to kind of work that out and then block the blockage and and fix it. But the tenants at the time, or customers, as we now call them, they were just, they didn't care. They just, they just saw it that we were incompetent and couldn't find this. We had scaffolding up. We had we were doing sort of water tests, you name it. We opened up, we were exposing pipe work. And yes, we found, you know, different sizes of pipe work as it went through the building. And but it can be really complicated, and particularly when you're dealing with older buildings that have no as built drawings, and you've got to be a bit of a detective. So I think there needs to be a balance, and I guess surveyors have got a role certainly to play in that, and try and help kind of manage that expectation
Marrion Ellis 18:11
with customers. One of the things I that I've noticed over the years is that there's a lot of educating the public, educating tenants, blame even, you know, there's damp, dampness, you know, open the window. You know, there's all sorts of advice and misinformation out there. One thing I think is really lacking, though, and it feels a bit weird to say it, but just a lack of how to live in a home and how to maintain a property. I'm old enough to have had, you know, some home ec lessons in school, you know, on how to do some boil an egg and make a cake or whatever. But don't recall anything about a property, although I know, you know, we had coal fires at home, so I know how to like fires. Can't say I'm Bear Grylls or anything like, anything like that. But, you know, I know some basic stuff, and we, we learn it as we as we go along, as we mature in our different, you know, sort of work and life. But just like you know, how we manage money and financial education. I think there's a, you know, real need for understanding how properties work, how we live in properties. And, you know, our kids are the future, and they've got, they'll have brilliant ideas of how we do things differently. And I know I'll pop a link in the in the show notes, because I've read something about our ICS Tina pay the current president, depending when you're listening to this, talked about GCSE in the built environment in schools. So, wow,
Hannah Howard-Jones 19:58
yeah, I think that would. I think I funny off. I went to my daughter's school. They were learning about houses, and I jumped at the opportunity to go and talk to them about surveying and what I took. I took a Lego house and talked through I was really surprised, because they all understood what a solar panel was, and they understood about the components, and, you know, they were really excited, but I think you're absolutely right. I mean, renting a property. I mean, we've got the how to rent guides now that you have to give out by law and but actually, if people understood what they they can expect that will help drive. Because, you know, we've, we've, we know that there are issues with social housing, but actually there are bigger issues, I think, in the PRS sector, where you you've had things like licensing, which has failed to address the issues and, and, you know, young people coming out of university, or even people at University renting property and and and not getting a basic service from their landlord. And I think people fall into becoming a landlord and don't actually understand what that means. And it's a huge responsibility. You you have an obligation to keep people who are living in your property and paying you a rent safe, and
Marrion Ellis 21:17
you're absolutely right. It's a responsibility not just taking money and seeing it as an income, but what are the responsibilities when you buy a property, when you rent a property, you know, when you're the landlord, when you're selling, you know, we've got material information now, from from trading standards, there are responsibilities and consequences with that, because they're dealing with human life at the end
Hannah Howard-Jones 21:39
of the day. Yeah, absolutely. And it's, it's, how do you kind of, I hope that sort of, my daughter's nearly six, so when she ends up, you know, going out into the world and renting, buying, she will have a lot more knowledge. I mean, even me, as a surveyor, going out and working in residential, I've not really worked on the kind of sales side of things. So when I bought my first house, that was a voyage of discovery, and I've done a few more kind of bulk disposals now. But on most of those transactions, you work with a professional team, and you you're constantly sort of, you're living and breathing the process. Yet when you're buying a property as an individual, and Joe Public, you kind of left a bit in the dark, and you kind of, you don't really know what to expect, and you're still waiting for the solicitor source to tell You. And I found that hugely frustrating. Moved recently, and, you know, by then, I did know the process I'd done a few just trying to get source and dialog, trying to get hold of my solicitor, was, you know, painful enough. And, you know, so imagine if you don't understand. And you know, it's incredibly stressful because you're worried. You want to move in. You don't want the thing to fall apart. So do you think we could do better in terms of that? Knowledge about what that entails, and school probably is the place to start
Marrion Ellis 23:10
in terms of improving things. There is a lot of work going on with the home buying and selling Council, which is looking at exactly that. How do we improve the way we We buy and sell, sell homes. I'm interested. You know, you've mentioned going into schools, and I know something you're quite, quite passionate about. But what about you? How, what inspired you to get involved in property? You know, did you know about being a surveyor as a child, for example?
Hannah Howard-Jones 23:39
No, I don't think growing up, I didn't, I didn't sort of think of a career as a surveyor. I think I was. It was my, my foster parents, son in law, who actually talked to me about surveying, I think after I'd sort of worked in the bar and sort of gone, Oh God, I don't really know what I want to do. He he said, Well, I'm a Qs, and this is what I do. And there's also building, surveying and, and I'm, I'm quite practical. I'm all I kind of like to get, sort of, you know, dealing with problems. And that kind of, what he described, sort of, you know, piqued my interest. And, and I looked into it more and thought, actually, yeah, this sounds, you know, this sounds like a good career. It's tangible. It's something which, you know, and I can sort of apply. I don't like abstract things. I'm not very good with sort of science and things I can't, you know, get, although that's interesting, because surveying kind of touches on lots of different things, doesn't it? But it's and I think as I kind of dealing with residential and certainly now the work I do resonates so much more, I guess, perhaps, and I can't say I went into it. With this in mind, but I certainly see the parallels now and the appreciation of what it means to have a stable home, and the importance of that for you, particularly, you hear about children at the moment living in temporary accommodation, and I think I've mentioned to you before, I grew up in care and having a solid, kind of stable home life was so, so important, and it gave me that ability just to get on and, you know, go to school and to learn and to to have aspirations. And I recognize that now, I don't think I recognized it when I started out in my career, but it's sort of more I've worked in property and sort of joined all of those things up, that I feel really quite strongly, that, you know, access to decent quality housing is so, so fundamental, not just for the end, of it for society, and if we're to have a strong society economy, you know, people need the basics, and the basics are home that they can actually go, go to close the door and feel safe and secure, and that enables so much More without it. You know, it's it, it's not, it's it's a basic need that just doesn't exist.
Marrion Ellis 26:26
Oh, absolutely, absolutely, one of the things I think, with residential it's very much the, I think the human side of surveying the reality check, if you like, I'm glad you weren't dazzled by the QS side of things. You came over to the residential side. But I think absolutely right. And I I come across this with lots of surveyors that I talk to that sometimes we don't know why we become a surveyor. You know, early on in our careers, you know, it looks good, it's a profession, you know, potential for this, that and the other. But there's something deeper down, I think, from our our experiences, good or bad, you know, whichever way, but those experiences that sort of leads us, leads us to it. And it's only when you get to a point in your career when you you can reflect. And I'm the same. I was brought up in a in a council estate. My mum bought her her mid, mid terrace council house was told not to get a survey. Didn't need one, and it had sulfate attack and major, you know, problems. She couldn't afford it either. You know, it was one of those disasters from the 90s, you know. But I do what I do because I help surveyors, and that helps them be better, and helps helps consumers. And sometimes it's not until you're late in your career that you can sort of, you know, put the pieces together and and clearly for you, there's very strong there about that sense of security and having that, that home life. And, you know, you're not the only surveyor. We've had a few surveyors on the podcast, actually, who've been brought up in care or were homeless, you know. And we find our path. It's obvious in many ways, but really interesting too,
Hannah Howard-Jones 28:21
yeah, and I think I get, you know, for me work, I love what I do. I get, you know, work with some amazing people. I work with such a variety, and every day, genuinely, is different, you know, the kind of, the breadth of, you know, the problems, because, generally, they are problems when things are ticking along, you know, it's good, but being able to kind of fix these problems actually, and realize the impact of that, what you've done and and put somebody in a better place that that, for Me, is, is is the whole point you kind of, you constantly, kind of sorting things out. And it can be really simple, like, I worked for a developer who was acquiring land in a very small kind of geography, and the way they drafted all of their transfer agreements, they had put the obligation to contribute to the communal service charges all on the new build customers. So basically, they were developing on infill sites, and the existing customers were benefiting from things like play equipment going in new landscaping, yet the cost was all being met by the people who'd bought these new homes. And that was inequitable, and that was unfair. And I, I said, You can't do that. You know, it's, it's, there'll be more people contributing, so the cost won't actually increase. Um. And it's far easier, and you're actually putting yourself in a position where you're likely to be taken to the tribunal, so you've got to change it. And I want that argument, and I feel like, you know, I've, you know, put things on a on a better footing for the future, because there won't be litigation that gets costly. And, you know, people, people, and very stressful, but, but also it means that the communities become sustainable and everybody understands and that you haven't got to divide, so that I get a lot out of doing, you know, that and trying to kind of create fairness and, you know, and I think property and surveying is, you know, generally founded on those principles as well. So it kind of comes naturally in many ways. That's
Marrion Ellis 30:49
interesting, because when we talk about future, we always talk about future, next generation, when actually you're dealing with the future in your work, you know, by having the rules, the fairness, the doing things properly, supports the future, prevents the problems happening, and perhaps we don't reflect on that. That's so much you had. We connected. We never know you a little while now, but I saw a post that you popped on LinkedIn about a message that somebody had had given you when you were on a panel. Tell me a bit more about that. So that was lovely. Yes,
Hannah Howard-Jones 31:25
that was, that was when. So in October, I I did something I've never done before, and I co chaired a conference. And I think, if you'd probably, I think when you knew me a few years before, and I was I did your surveyors get visible, course? And I probably didn't act on that immediately. So it took me a little while to sort of build up that the courage to sort of be more visible. But after a significant birthday last year, I thought, actually, no, now's the time to start not being afraid of doing these things and actually put my money where my mouth is. In in many ways, you know, I can. I can sort of complain about being a woman in property and, you know, not that many women and all, but actually, I'm, I'm part of the problem if I don't do something. So I am I was offered the chance, and I accepted from the National Housing Federation to co chair their conference, and I stood up, and I used the opportunity to talk about visibility, and I've got it here somewhere, actually the notes I keep it on my desk. And afterwards, the lady came up to me, and she gave me this note, and it said to Hannah, well done on the intro. Thank you for representing us. And I, I didn't expect that at all. I knew I had to say it, but I didn't realize that the kind of I'd get that feedback immediately. And, and actually, that made it, you know, kind of reaffirmed why I'd done it, and, and, yeah, and I think, I think we need to see those role models, don't we? We need to constantly look on LinkedIn and see photographs of events. And I do end up counting how many women are in the picture, and there generally aren't that many. And that's not right with we're dealing with. You know, society, society is diverse, and why is the the profession that works in the communities and people's homes reflecting that. And I think, you know, if we can demonstrate that the profession isn't just sort of, and I don't, where I work now doesn't have this issue, but I've worked in businesses where it's been very male dominated and and that's not a good thing. It's not good for anyone. And actually, we had our internal asset conference last couple of days up in Newcastle and and actually the team, we've got a fantastic range variety and of people from different backgrounds, different specialisms, some not from property, some from and actually, as we we we set some case studies. And actually was what was really nice to see was it wasn't the kind of core surveyors stood up talking through an options appraisal. We had people from the sort of data analytics parts of the business. We had some of our interns and and we all because we're kind of reflecting, and we said, isn't that great that they feel they can stand up, whereas I think when you work in sort of businesses which all look the same, you're less likely to do that, because you know that you stand out, and you know that you're different.
Marrion Ellis 34:59
And I. Psychological safety, you know, sort of creating an environment where everybody feels that they can, that they can not just speak out, but contribute to and, you know, you learn. I think sometimes you learn most from your frontline people too, you know, so on the case studies, you know, I've done that before, companies that I've worked for and share the case study, but, but actually wouldn't have been great for the person who dealt with that, to deal with it, you know, or to share the success or the other learning. And in terms of, you know, the the women, we absolutely need to step up and be visible. And there was a post by, I'll see if I can find it and pop it in the I don't keep on going to say the chat, but I mean, the Pog, the What am I doing? A podcast, podcast notes with the Samantha McClary from estates Gazette. There was some research out. I think it was CBRE about, you know how women, younger women, don't want to be in charge. And there was this call, really, of pull your finger out. You know, we need role models and And absolutely, we need that. But do you know how exhausting it is when you get to that stage of life, with your career, your family. You know menopause is on the way. You know your parents. My friend Anne used to call it being the Panini generation, where you're squashed from from both sides, and where's the support for those women? You know, because if we can feel supported, then we can go out and do the things that that we need to when we're best placed to and some of it is us taking it all upon ourselves and and part of the conversation, I think, was, you know, the usual women stepping away from senior roles and C suite. And I think I chipped in and said, Well, I think they're making smart decisions, because they're not welcome. It's not a place that accommodates actually, you know, individuals and all the things that we have have going on. But it's not just women. It is about being inclusive for for all and for everybody and but I think you it's been interesting of of late. So as we record this, it's late November, there's been a lot of discussion about RICS and their concessions, where they removed part time. And there was a challenge from that, and there's a challenge mainly from women, although apparently affected 80 of those who had part time, 80% were men, so more were affected. But it was the women who spoke out and said, This isn't right, and made some, you know, got them to take on board and make some, some changes so, and they've done that, and they're prepared to listen now, and hopefully things will be be better going going forward. So women, you know, perhaps sort of, we're not always visible in the way we think we need to be, but there's we are doing things, even if we think that we're, you know, what we think it should be like, on stage, on panels, doing those things, it's not cut out for all of us. Yeah, you know, there are different ways that we can make a difference, you know.
Hannah Howard-Jones 38:18
And it's not all on, like you say, it's not all on women. We need allies. We need We need men to stand up and talk. You know, recognize that this is how it impacts and I think I see, I do see that more. I think it's probably been only very recently, and certainly working in a housing association which is a lot more inclusive than perhaps some of the more traditional, male dominated industries.
Marrion Ellis 38:49
Yeah, they tend to be the and the housing sector is much more balanced in my experience,
Hannah Howard-Jones 38:53
yeah, yeah, and, but, but I think it's, it's good for men as well, that we kind of break some of these hierarchical patriarchal structures and actually start looking beyond them. Because I don't think that's good, you know, I've worked in some of those environments and the behaviors it encourages, and you either have to sort of be completely aware of what you're going into and understand you're playing a game. But then that only works for a few people. There's others who are just having to conform and, and, and I'm not surprised. We've got such, you know, high cases of male suicide, if that's, you know, men feel they haven't got this outlet. I think women we have. I certainly feel the older I get, the more confident I get about talking out about things and not being afraid and not not, you know, not being if I hear something. I'll, I'll call it out, and I'll do it in a way, you know, I won't embarrass or I won't shame anyone. I'll do it in a way that actually goes. Did you know? And you know, it's having those conversation, being able to have those conversations is so important, but we're not there. And you know, that's, that's something I'd like to see, certainly, before my daughter goes, you know, into the world of work, I don't want her to have the same battles I've had.
Marrion Ellis 40:28
I feel very the very much the same. I've got a son and son and daughter, you know. And I look at little me there, you know, as to what world is she going into, and what will, what needs to change, and that can, that can motivate you. But also, I think men and young men have a really challenging time because they've been brought up with, you know, actually really much more inclusive and different culture than than we, you know, Gen X Hard Knocks kids were dragged through, and then they hit this sort of wall of culture when they they get to points in their career or work in certain businesses. And yes, you know, it's not just about them having paternity leave and things as well. It is about having to conform, and for them having creating spaces where they want want to be and have the confidence to speak up about that. And you're absolutely right. You know, women, and there's lots of research, are wired to tend and befriend and we talk about things. And that is the bus of jokes, obviously. But because, just like the concession situation, we talked about it, we had a voice. We raised it, things started to change. But men are wired differently, you know. And we can argue gender, male, female, or, you know, those things, but it's the you know, as a general principle, you know, men don't and that that's there in the numbers of they go straight to suicide, whereas we will get therapy, we will talk, you know, we will be very depressed for a long time. You know, the outcomes are more devastating, you know, to get to that end point, whereas we've got the hard, hard slog, and it does look like a very different, different picture, but you've got to say, you've got to learn how to talk. And it's a big ask for that. I did a podcast with a chat called Ryan Park, again, it's got lots of notes in this one, Hannah, I'll put a link to that. And we talked about this, the science of male mental health, and just how it is so different, how men are wired differently to women. And so, you know, asking men to talk, to talk about their feelings isn't going to wash you know, it's not the same. And so, you know, at some point in our trying to be inclusive and fair to everybody, we've really got to remember that we are all different. We have all different experiences. We're wired hormonally, which means that, you know, you know, wired differently hormonally, which means the way we react and show up is is very different. And so a one size doesn't fit all. And I think that's where I get very frustrated with, let's tackle inclusion, and let's, you know, equity, equality, and all of those, those jargon words that some of us get, get confused with. We all want to do the right thing, and we're trying to, but it's got the context I think is so, so so important, and we do that by listening and starting with what's the most stupid thing we're asked to do, and what would we really, really like to happen. And when I think about some of those things, actually, it leads me then to think about customer experience, you know, with the work that I've done with complaints and claims and how you prevent problems, and it's tuning into the individual and that set of circumstances and working out. Okay, well, what do they need? And what is the best thing? And there isn't that cookie cutter approach, you know,
Hannah Howard-Jones 44:05
no. And I think so interesting, because I guess the work we're focused on very much at the moment around our law is, is sort of pushing. It talks about hazards, but it's talking about hazards in the context of the person, of the individual, and really sort of driving that nuanced approach. And it's, it's not easy. You can't, you can't apply a cookie cutter approach, because actually, we are all very different than what, what, what might impact one person doesn't impact another in the same way. And so I think we've got to become more complex in our thinking and understanding and nuanced. And you know, that's probably a skill set we all need to acquire and become more in tune with. But I think just being, being kind of reminding you. Self that actually, and I have to do this myself, you know, you know, we have a big thing around our values, and want to, you know, be curious. And so there's times where you're trying to do work collaboratively, and somebody will kind of put up an obstacle, and you think, Oh, God, why are you doing that? I just want to do this. And it's all time trying to remind yourself, why be curious. Don't think the negative. Don't think that that person's deliberately trying to stop you. Just Just try and sort of open your mind and actually that helps, it helps your your yourself, because then you don't go to the sort of dark thoughts in your head that somebody's trying to trip you up, you actually realize that there is a genuine reason. I think perhaps that's the starting point, isn't it, to try and be more in tune with with all these differences that we all have for myriad of reasons. You know, nobody is the same, are we? So my
Marrion Ellis 45:58
thought process in my head there is, you're talking, in my head, I instantly saw, why don't we have a level three mandatory competency on emotional intelligence as part of the APC, as if? But before that, a level
Hannah Howard-Jones 46:17
three of our mind.
Marrion Ellis 46:21
But before that, my my thought was, it is a big gap, a big leap, isn't it? To have to go from learning all the technical stuff and the contract and the safety and on all the practical stuff that we do, and yes, there's a module on client care, you know, and all the things that we're supposed to do. But there's a real there's a gap between someone knowing the technical stuff and being able to then administer it, make decisions, you know, trust their gut instinct as to what they what they they need to do without experience. And it's life experience to not just, you know, experience of the of the job, and everybody feels like the CPD and their, you know, their APC diary when they're when we're qualifying, although most of mine, I think, just had half an hour of estates Gazette every year, every couple of weeks. But, yeah, we have, we have the all, all of this. But you know, how do you get that kind of emotional intelligence? And does it sound like another fad, you know, but we if we don't have that, if we don't tune into the context, we miss the red flags, we miss the warning signs, and we go straight into blame, and that costs money, when actually, we're humans, and we make human errors all of the time, or we have perceptions, and our lived experience gets us to, you know, to that point, and I think I mean thinking about it, the one thing when I've spoken to lots of younger surveyors and APC, you know, sort of candidates, about various different things, the one thing I wish I had done differently was the personal development was to just know myself better, not necessarily therapy, you know, but But to do that and to start that and becoming much more aware and and these days, you know, you have got TED talks, you know, there's a brilliant webinar library full of the stuff that Lionheart has, which is free to for anybody to access. You know, we've it's within our grasp now to do, to do these things, but that's the one thing I think is so so important, because it just helps us put all of these things understand the world that we, that we live in. Does that make sense?
Hannah Howard-Jones 48:38
Yeah, no. I think someone who has done a little bit of therapy in my life to to varying degrees of success, but certainly I kind of, I find like even now, I sort of apply CBT, is it? Is it a hypothetical worry? Is it, or is it an actual worry? And I do apply that now sort of to my approach and actually, and I've stopped worrying about things that I can't control or haven't yet happened and that, but that's that's taken a long time, and I think it comes with experience. It comes there's also it takes a lot from you to do that, to sort of invest in yourself and learn about yourself and challenge yourself and challenge how you think. So, I think it has to be right. You can't. It's not saying you can just go and sort of buy, you know, take off the shelf and go, right. I'm going to do this today, and it's all going to fall in place. It's a journey. And I think, you know, people have moments in their life where, which are defining. We all hear about that, don't we, in that that's you can't quite. Uh, predict or plan when those will happen. So I don't know, is it age? Maybe that's what it is. It's sort of experience. And
Marrion Ellis 50:10
yeah, it's, um, yeah, there's uh, I think particularly for for women, we get to a point in our lives, as you, as you mentioned earlier, we get to a point in our lives where we're not prepared to put up with stuff anymore, you know, I will try and tactfully speak out. Sometimes it just come. It just comes up. But you get to a point where you think, hang on a minute, you know. And through all sort of those sort of experiences and things that happened in in life, sometimes, you know, you you read stuff, you watch stuff, you experience stuff, it just lands when it lands, you know, I don't think so. Me saying I wish I'd done some personal development years ago. I probably wasn't mature enough at all to comprehend, you know what that would what that would mean. I wish I'd had some awareness of it. I'm probably not so judgmental that, you know, it was a fluffy stuff, so to speak. But I think, I think having that, that awareness, but, you know, it just, it just lands where it where it lands, but it we do have to advocate for ourselves, and we do have to have some compassion for ourselves, you know, as to where we've been, what we've experienced, what we've learned from it, the the good and the bad, but just constantly having that conversation, I suppose, with us, with ourselves, of understanding where, where we're at and, and what we're capable of and, and a lot of The surveyors that I I work with, you know, you know. I'll say, you know you can trust your technical ability. You know you need to be able to know what you you can and can't do, you know, and be honest with yourself. You've got to understand the context of a of a situation and how you react, but you've got to have a wisdom to know what to do in the moment and make those decisions, or whatever it is, and how you react, you get to choose how you react. And some of that comes from experience, but also some of it can come from knowing that there is a lack, you know. So we talked about, you know, buying a first property. So many surveyors cannot afford to buy their own home, and yet, they're out there doing surveys for people who will buy their own home, you know? So it's, it's a it's a big gap, and we shouldn't be intimidated by that. It would be easy to think, you know, I mean, I've, you know, I've dealt with multi million pound properties projects. I'm sure you've done that. No way would we ever be able to afford some some properties. But we, you know, we, we need to have that self esteem and value ourselves enough to bring that our knowledge and our view to the table with with confidence and and to be able to have the space to be allowed to to do that, because that's where you get that those different perspectives, you know, when and we, and we change, we change things. Oh, put the wheel to right there, didn't I? No, no,
Hannah Howard-Jones 53:10
is it, I think is as well kind of real, like you have, you know, you have a skill you have. I mean, it's not a trade, but essentially, you have something that somebody else doesn't have. It doesn't matter who they are or, you know, how much money they've got. They require your services. They require your professional advice to help them navigate something. And I guess the value of the property that it's, well, of course, it kind of reflects the risk if you're being paid as a percentage on on something, but at the same time, you still do the same job. Whether it's a two bed terrace versus whether it's a multi million pound mansion, it's the same you provide that same level of service. We did have this when I worked, when I started out in property management, we would, I worked in central London, and there was this theory, that is, we had some properties that were further out that the the the adage was, the closer you were to zone one, the more demanding that the client base was. And yes, there was a correlation, and and that probably translates a bit into social housing as well. Actually, people who are the most vulnerable and who need more and probably don't speak up. Actually, that's where our attention is. But you tend to go where, who shouts loudest sometimes. And there's a big thing in in the sector about actually, whereas I can't remember the phrase, but essentially, who isn't complaining? Who isn't calling you? Who? You not going to do repairs. And you know, who are you not engaged with? Go and go and check that they're okay. Because, actually, that's probably where your biggest risks are. And and you know, there's a big campaign around, you know, making every contact counts from the National Housing Federation. And certainly, desire to kind of become more kind of community based in your in in operations. And actually, we're actually, yes, we're dealing with property, but we're dealing with people and those that relationship when I, when I started out, I'd get so much out of being out and about amongst the properties that I was looking after and actually understanding, because you the insight you get from the person telling you actually the leak does this. When this happens, the property can't tell you that. So it's, it's kind of listening, isn't it, and being in tune with all of those things it is,
Marrion Ellis 55:59
yeah, it's, it's absolutely that and that you just reminded me when, when my daughter was little, I went to a breastfeeding clinic. And I, you know, I had post nasal depression with both my kids. It was quite, quite tough with my my second and I would drag my drug myself out. And I remember, luckily, it was on a good day when I was feeling a bit more positive. And I remember speaking to the health visitor, and she said, you know, something along the lines of, well, you know, actually, we're not really here to help you, not you know, it's great that you're here. I'm interested in the women who have not turned up today. Why have they not turned up today? Where are they? What do they need? You know? And I think a good taking it, you know, nobody cares about me and about it, but I took a lot, lot from that, actually, that I've got the confidence and the tongue in my head to ask for help, whereas not everybody, everybody does, and it's, it's often those who are quiet and don't complain. And it's not that those who are complaining and speaking out are any were less worthy. It's just, let's just notice the quiet ones, you know, and that stuck with me for for a long time after. But you know, you know. Again, it's it. But it comes back to those learning how to speak to people, how to find the information, talking to homeowners, vendors, tenants, you know, what are they experiencing? What's the most distressing part of this? A lot of the time it's the uncertainty of when are you going to fix it, and how long will it take to to fix people appreciate that. Mistakes are made. Things go wrong. You know, much more forgiving of that than than I think, sort of people, people really realize, but it's the uncertainty that can cause an awful lot of anxiety. So, yeah, I can really under understand that.
Hannah Howard-Jones 57:56
Yeah, no, it's, it's, I find we've had a quite a challenging issue in one of our developments, and actually, the customers there probably have the right to be shouting the loudest of all of our customers, given the issues that are ongoing and through no fault of our own. I hasten to add, I won't go into the details, but essentially, because we've because we've taken the time to sort and we've invested heavily in it, it has been, I mean, it shows that when the cost of problems and when things don't go as They should, but by investing that time and and communicating clearly, those customers are actually very, very understanding, and the trust is there. They understand what we're doing for them, what how we're trying to navigate this situation with them to get the right outcome. And you know, I think had we not listened, had we not sort of put ourselves in their shoes and being very transactional about it, you know, we would be, you know, having a, you know, there'd be, there'd be riots on the street, no doubt. And probably rightly so, I think, and I think that's that's so important in property is understanding those people in their homes. We all live in a house. We all understand that our own frustrations, if things don't go wrong, or somebody comes around and does a repair and doesn't do it properly. I mean, I live in a new building, still dealing with snagging issues. Two and a half years later, God, funny enough, my my husband doesn't cope. I cope with it better than he does. Because I guess I perhaps understand that's unfortunately, the sad reality of when you buy a new build, you've got to be prepared that the developer isn't going to fix things. And that's not right. And I don't know whether we're. Seeing any benefits from the new homes ombudsman, yet I don't benefit from that, because I brought pride to them coming into effect. But it's we've still got a long way to go. I think
Marrion Ellis 1:00:14
it's interesting the new homes ombudsman, because that always seemed, for me, always seems to be after the effect. So, you know, my early career was with the developer, and at the time they, they had this big push on customer experience. And really, I think where I learned a lot of my foundations, actually, of the principles that I approach to that, but it was getting it right, you know, and doing the right thing at the start would would prevent it. You know, once someone's moved into a home and the monies have completed and the contractors have gone, and you can't actually fix most things, you're just into legal battles and arguments. And whilst it's great to have, you know, the the ombudsman and people we can take it forward with afterwards, it does absolutely nothing for somebody who's in a home staring at the thing that's broken doesn't work, is annoyed that they paid money for all of those things. So I think interventions and things like that are really only really work if it's at the point where it can really make a difference, and not just being seen to.
Hannah Howard-Jones 1:01:27
I completely agree. I think it's far more costly, isn't it, to sort of, I mean, I've, we've had, we've had our personal belongings damage through kind of trades coming in, and, you know, it's cost the developer to replace that. I mean, it's not good for them, but I think there is a recognition now. I think certainly the Grenfell inquiry and the findings about the golden thread and the need to sort of get more certainty around standards and meeting standards through that build process. I think that will be better. I don't know anybody. I mean, certainly my position where I'm receiving handover of new build properties, every single block of flats in the last 510, years, you get a fire risk assessment done, and it comes back, and you've got compartmentation issues that should never happen. There should be that absolute certainty the day of handover that that building complies. Yet we know from what happened at Grenfell, and we know from the subsequent findings that the checks are just not there, and perhaps that's because the developers haven't invested. I think that's probably the answer. They've they've put all the risk so they thought on the contractor, and the contractor has done what they think is right, but there's been no checking. There's been no governance in place to get that assurance. And I'm, I'm involved in some work around data. So we're doing a lot of work around our own data at home group, and I've been having some really interesting conversations with people who are actually quite headed, almost like years ahead in terms of their thinking and all this doing retrospective BIM models to actually prove that the building that they commissioned have paid for hasn't been designed as built, and coin a phrase Qs I worked with not so long ago said, you know, you've paid for a Ferrari, but you've got a Skoda. And actually, I think the more we can bring, we can utilize data and have data driven sort of sign offs where actually getting the inputs. And this blows my mind a bit, but you can actually, rather than having a certificate, you almost get the backing details, the assurance from the measures that confirm something's compliance, and then it's signed off. It's we're not there yet. And I think people be very nervous about changing how that's done without huge testing, but it just demonstrates there is a need for that to how can we be absolutely certain? Because I know, I mean, you get a certificate, or you get a handover health and safety file, it will vary time and time again. The lack of standardization that you know the contractors giving you something that they think is what you've asked for, and it's not, and it's that back and forth. And then you've got the pressures, the commercial pressures, which are, I've sold these units, I need to hit my year end deadlines, or contractually, I've given you everything you asked for. You get into this bun fight and no, that's not what you are in. It. All that ambiguity needs to be taken out. So, so there's certainty, yeah, and
Marrion Ellis 1:05:06
then there's confidence in certainty, you know. And that's, that's the thing with valuation, you know, being an art, not a science, and and all of that there's, there's confidence in certainty. But you have to come back to the rules. You know what? You know, the standards, the rules, are they the right rules, you know? And how do they come about? And and understanding all of that is so, so important. One of the things we've looked at in the as part of Spain work have done with the home buying and selling Council is a, is, you know, a triage based approach of, you know, if we know that there are these key problems, these trends, why don't we just start there? You know, we can, while we're working on the what it should look like, and this, why don't we just start here? Because we know, you know, there's a risk of certain things happening, and there are patterns, you know, and even just starting to tackle some of those are bringing some awareness. You're bringing it up front, which will prevent it, you know, you know, further down the the line. So there's lots of different ways to approach some of these, these things. I don't think it's, it's just on, on the building construction side. I think it's across the whole way that we, that we are as a, as a society and and also, you know, as a, you know, as a professional membership, it's all about the rules. You know, you don't, don't break the rules. But we've got to have a more understanding of bringing those, bringing those to life. But, but look, Hannah, it's been brilliant to catch up with you today. Really nice chat. Yeah, no, it's
Hannah Howard-Jones 1:06:43
been great. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you for having me.
Marrion Ellis 1:06:48
Thanks for listening. Don't forget to take a look at the show notes to follow up on any of the links and resources. You can also find more training, webinars and workshops for surveyors by visiting my website at WWW dot love surveying.com and if you found this helpful, you can show your support by recommending the podcast to others, leaving a review or simply buying me a coffee. I'll see you next time you.
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