Joshim
[00:00:00] Joshim Uddin: It's very multicultural. It has... High values, um, especially in certain pockets such as, um, the City Fringe or the Isle of Dogs or where Canary Wharf is. Um, but it's, it's a mixed bag. It's got a lot of, um, new development coming up and has come up. It has a lot of estate regeneration schemes, um, there's been controversial appeals and committees, there's, there have been small sites that have come forward.
[00:00:31] Joshim Uddin: Um, the overall issue with Tower Hamlets is that it has a huge need. For affordable housing. Housing, yes, but affordable housing need is significantly high. The waiting list is in the tens of thousands for families to get into homes. And that's what brings about the value of the work that we do. For every, for every home that we secure, or we're able to negotiate and discuss the higher contribution [00:01:00] level.
[00:01:01] Joshim Uddin: That's families coming into safe housing, safe homes, people who are potentially in dangerous accommodation, people who are in accommodation that has mould in it, it's causing asthma and all these other issues. And I know that our mayor is very, very, um, he is very keen to make sure that we have a lot of housing coming forward wherever possible.
[00:01:24] Joshim Uddin: And that's what we look to deliver, um, where we can, the best we can. It's, it can be tricky sometimes, but you know, you have to deal with what you have in front of you. Um, but it's, like I said, housing's one thing, but you also need to make sure you're creating good communities. And this is where the work of a valuer in Tower Hamlets is more rounded than just report, report,
[00:01:48] Marion Ellis: Welcome to the Surveyor Hub podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do. I'm Marion Ellis, and today I catch up with RICS Matrix Award winner [00:02:00] Josh M. Udin, a chartered surveyor who leads a public sector development viability service in Tower Hamlets, working to ensure maximum levels of affordable housing and developer contributions as part of planning applications for new development schemes for local residents.
[00:02:18]
[00:02:19] Marion Ellis: . So, welcome to the podcast, Josh Im.
[00:02:22] Joshim Uddin: Thank you very
[00:02:22] Marion Ellis: much. Thanks That's quite all right. Um, I know we've had a bit of to it and fro ing to try and get uh, to get this sorted out, haven't we?
[00:02:29] Marion Ellis: Just various different, uh, different things. Um, tell us a bit about, uh, let's start with how you became a surveyor.
[00:02:40] Joshim Uddin: Sure, um, I became a surveyor, um, when, after I joined the valuation office, um, that was my first job out of university in the graduate program and, uh, rotated around the business raids to the District value of services or property services sector, [00:03:00] where I did, um, book valuations, inheritance tax, capital gains, right to buys, and development work as well.
[00:03:07] Joshim Uddin: And then after qualifying, um, and doing their rotation, I moved back to rating for a while, and that's where I. Uh, started to figure out what I really want to do for the long term and, um, from there it kind of led me to development, but more focused towards, um, a social value, um, element of it and for the purpose of affordable housing and developer contributions.
[00:03:30] Marion Ellis: So I, yeah, so I came across you, um, I know, because I noticed, happened to notice that you won the valuation category for the RICS Matrix Awards 2023, uh, and I was interested because you work for a local authority, um, and often in the valuation you get the private sector. So I thought, oh, that's something a bit different that I don't know about.
[00:03:55] Marion Ellis: Hence it was, uh, can we please have a chat? Um. So, uh, [00:04:00] so it's interesting you talk about social value, and I'm sure we'll, we'll come on to that. Um, jumping, if I can just jump back, so when did you, did you start, uh, the APC while you were at the Valuation Office then? Because I know they've got a great scheme there, haven't they, that a lot of people go through that?
[00:04:15] Joshim Uddin: Yeah, so, um, straight out of university I went on to the VO's graduate program. And, um, it kind of went from there, to be honest. Um, And you did the usual two years at the ABC and, um, then after you, um, were successful at the ABC you, you, you moved forward. Um, and that's kind of led me
[00:04:34] Marion Ellis: here. What did you do at, uh, university?
[00:04:38] Marion Ellis: I
[00:04:38] Joshim Uddin: did, um, urban estate management, um, real estate at the University of Westminster, um, as an undergrad, um, and it was RICS accredited, so I didn't have to do a postgrad or anything, um, and it made me eligible to get on the, um, RICS APC.
[00:04:55] Marion Ellis: See, I knew I was going to like you because I did estate management, albeit it wasn't urban, uh, [00:05:00] and it was at an institute in North Wales, but, uh, estate management gives a real broad range, doesn't it, of all sorts of different things.
[00:05:08] Marion Ellis: It was a great introduction, I think, to water construction and surveying and, and things.
[00:05:14] Joshim Uddin: Yeah, it was. Um, and luckily for me, the final year's, um, dissertation, if you like, was around the development appraisal. So it was directly linked to what I do day in day out today. Um, but they covered a broad range of, um, different areas, including building tech, valuation and property management.
[00:05:36] Joshim Uddin: So it was it was good. And I and I like the university because it was really welcoming. to a very different type of students, um, who wanted to get into it and they had a variety of property courses. Um, this one stuck out at me because it was accredited and, and mainly because the modules all looked really, um, interesting.
[00:05:59] Marion Ellis: Um, and what about when you were [00:06:00] at school? Were you just interested in, did you do geography? Were you interested in built environment or?
[00:06:05] Joshim Uddin: I, I always had a bit of a liking towards property. But property I felt was. I initially thought it was quite difficult to get into because I didn't have or didn't know anyone who was actually in the field to the extent of being a valuer or a property lawyer or anything like that.
[00:06:24] Joshim Uddin: Um, so I didn't really know what avenue to go down. So you do the typical subjects in school. And, um, I always thought I'd do something along the lines of property, and then you go to college, um, I did usual subjects, if I recall correctly, English, religious education, and, um, accounting, I believe, or business.
[00:06:46] Joshim Uddin: Um, but then, I think that's, that was the point I really wanted to understand, right, what do I want to do for the purposes of my career, and I had to think carefully before choosing a degree that I wanted to do. And, um. [00:07:00] So I had a bit of a search, and I came across Westminster, and I came across property degrees.
[00:07:06] Joshim Uddin: Um, and that's, that, that was the in, if you like. I thought, okay, let's give this a go, and this might lead to better things. Um, and that's how, that's the kind of route, but it wasn't so apparent, um, for me anyway, because I didn't, as I said, I didn't really know many people in the industry, so it was a bit of a stab in the dark, and even when I finished my degree, I didn't have anything certain.
[00:07:27] Joshim Uddin: I've become a valuer. I, um, I, I, I believe I was just really, really lucky. Um, because back then I think it was quite competitive, um, to trying to get into firms, uh, including the VO, but, um, I, um, I was successful. So I was really grateful. Uh, I'm just going to press
[00:07:49] Marion Ellis: record. I am record. I haven't recorded it on, um, on another thing, but I record it on, uh, This meeting is being [00:08:00] recorded.
[00:08:00] Marion Ellis: This other thing that does it's meant to do transcription. So, uh, now I'm confident. I've got both. Oh, I don't have to What's interesting is that? I'm, not gonna ask you to repeat that. Don't worry. What is interesting is, um, The way that you can edit podcasts and stuff now with AI it is amazing Um, I have a bit of help with somebody who who does it just because I I either forget to do it or I get behind or whatever, but, um, yeah, you can do it all.
[00:08:30] Marion Ellis: I learned to do my podcast, um, I thought about doing it before, you know, before lockdown and I, I left my corporate job and I had an Apple Mac computer and I went into Apple store, they do lessons and they showed me how to use, um, uh, Uh, iMovie, and I edited and created it all myself. Yeah, I know, look at that, me, even I could do it.
[00:08:51] Marion Ellis: So, sorry, we're, we're recording, we are recording, it's fine, it's fine. That's interesting because I didn't really have the um, [00:09:00] the role models, the, that insight that into the property sector when I, when I was younger. Uh, and as you're, you're talking there it's making me think about some of the students and graduates that I, I come across and everybody's looking for that clear path of what are the steps that I need to take to get to where I need to be, you know, and we, We want to know the roles, you know, trying to explain what a surveyor does.
[00:09:27] Marion Ellis: There's like hundreds and hundreds of us doing different things and we're all at different stages and our own, you know, quirky characters. And then working that back to, um, well, what course, how can I get the best job and all those things. And it's, it's really hard. And the best bit of advice I could give to people would be to just have a sense of direction.
[00:09:51] Marion Ellis: You know, so, so for me it was, I remember being quite inspired by one geography lesson and it was to do with [00:10:00] planning and planning a route for a man to deliver the post across these fields and who owned the fields and what not. It was one lesson in all my, all my years and I thought I wanted to do planning.
[00:10:11] Marion Ellis: Instead I married a planner, which turned out to be a much better, uh, I think I'd have got bored if I'm honest. Um, but just knowing what's about and immersing yourself and not, not worrying too much about the, uh, you know, the, the different steps. And because who you are at the start of your career is not who you'll be, you know, you know, later on and the things that influence you, the things that are important to you.
[00:10:36] Marion Ellis: But just have that sense of direction takes a whole lot of worry. But it is hard.
[00:10:43] Joshim Uddin: Yeah, it can be. It can be quite difficult to really know what you want to do, especially at quite an early part of your life. Um, I know a lot of planners now and a lot of them. did do geography and had an interest in geography and they ended up in planning.
[00:10:58] Joshim Uddin: Um, [00:11:00] I think the surveyors, I just didn't think there was a particular subject, a common subject, that can lead you into this field without a bit of direction. Um, I think there's a lot of, a lot of values I've come across. They had, not all, but a lot, had family ties in, in practices, or they, their parents were surveyors, or someone they knew.
[00:11:25] Joshim Uddin: So they, they kind of understood what it is that a surveyor does, and so they kind of were inspired. And it's funny, because I'm now actually, I've been appointed by the RIC as an evaluation professional group panel member. Um, as part of the new PGPs, and one of the things that we're talking about is inspiring the next generation, and it was interesting because there's so many different kind of, um, thoughts on the table, and yes, you can go into schools, you can try and inspire people, [00:12:00] um, at a young age, and try and attract them to the industry, because that's quite a key focus, but you One person raised something really important and they said, well, we need to find the parents because they may want to inspire their children.
[00:12:15] Joshim Uddin: 'cause a lot of the time you'll hear, oh, when you grow up, make sure you become a lawyer or a doctor or, or an astronaut or something like that. And, um, Seve's never on that list. And, um, and I thought that was really interesting. I, I didn't, I, I, I hadn't thought of it like that, but then I kind of brought it back home and I realized.
[00:12:32] Joshim Uddin: Well, those are the kind of things I would hear my parents say. Mm-Hmm. I wouldn't thought I'd hear a severe on that list. And it, it, it's also, it's also about educating not just the young generation, but kind parents, new parents. Um, so it's, so it's kind of embedded from an early stage, so it kind of grows later down the line.
[00:12:52] Joshim Uddin: Um,
[00:12:53] Marion Ellis: but yeah. Exactly. It's a, it's a really interesting thing though, . Um, I dunno if, if you've got kids or, or how old they are. I've got a [00:13:00] 14-year-old. Um, and, you know, I've talked about going into his school and, you know, doing a bit of surveying talk, and he's just like absolutely cringe, no way, he, you know, he doesn't want to know about my podcast and the things that I could do, I'd say I was a pretty cool mum, but he's clearly not, not impressed at all, um, it's, it's funny, isn't it?
[00:13:28] Marion Ellis: Okay, so with, with valuation, well, this is a couple of things. We talked about the next generation, inspiring the next generation of surveyors. Yes, we've got to do that, but I think we need to inspire the current generation of surveyors too. There's, um, you know, there's quite a few surveyors I know who, you know, will do the, you know, the training, you know, residential survey, survey and valuation, diplomas, qualifications, and they have a real fear of valuation.
[00:13:58] Marion Ellis: You know, and, and from my [00:14:00] claims experience, I often see people either wear their value a hat, or they wear their, you know, building pathology defects, uh, building surveyor hats. Um, and knowing which one you more are, you know, you're more likely to get a claim on the other if you're, if you're outside your comfort zone would be mine, my overall experience.
[00:14:20] Marion Ellis: Um, but I think, you know, there's a lot of surveyors out there already who. can do valuation, but it's hard getting the PR, particularly from private practice, you know, and all the, you know, post grand fellow, all the, the challenges that, that we have there, but I think there's more we can do to inspire the current generation on, uh, on valuation, and, and you're right in terms of, you know, trying to speak to kids about stuff, it's the hardest thing ever, and I'll put a link, um, in the show notes to, um, uh, you know, RICS Uh, school sort of campaign.
[00:14:54] Marion Ellis: They've got some actually some great resources. There's another one. We, uh, webinar recorded recently with the [00:15:00] Charter Survey Training Trust who have a My Environment, My Future campaign where they actually create materials for the schools. You know, it's all about sort of making it, making it easy. Um, and then when it comes to parents, you know, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'd love to be able to.
[00:15:18] Marion Ellis: Talk about different things. And maybe it's just because I'm a surveyor and I love surveying. Maybe that's the problem. But, um, yeah, we've got, you've got to tackle it in all different ways, haven't
[00:15:28] Joshim Uddin: you? You do, you do. I think it's interesting what you say about kind of inspiring the current, um, the current generation of surveyors.
[00:15:38] Joshim Uddin: Another thing that we were talking about the RICS group panel was that transparency is, is key. And A lot of the time, you mentioned that some values may be a bit fearful about kind of progressing with valuations, insurance claims, all these types of things that can come up. And the thing that we were discussing [00:16:00] was there needs to be consistency and transparency in the work that people do.
[00:16:04] Joshim Uddin: It's all about justifying the work that you put forward or the values that you put forward or the advice that you give. And it's not just the end number. It's, it's how you got to it, what surrounding advice you can give around it that will safeguard your position, um, because if you, if you can really try and justify your work, you've got some sound, you've got, you've got your own judgment, but if you've got a sound base of what you're putting forward, then you're, you're, you're on, you're on safe ground, somewhat.
[00:16:32] Joshim Uddin: I think it's when, It's when there's been work, there's been going around that may not be fully justified, that there could be, you know, potential issues coming, coming their way. And it's those things that's probably been scaring some people, um, but I don't think that should be the case if, if we as a community of surveyors, um, ensure that we are doing our job to the best of our ability.
[00:16:57] Joshim Uddin: Then we as a community [00:17:00] can safeguard against any potential
[00:17:01] Marion Ellis: harm. I think there's, um, to do, you know, to do a job well, you need to have the technical knowledge. You need to be properly, properly trained and I, you know, as I look at the, the surveying community, you know, they might've done their APT, understand about the, you know, the five different methods of valuation back in 1975 or whatever, um, but, uh, as I've done very little since, you know, and.
[00:17:29] Marion Ellis: We're in a world of technology now where you can go online and get a valuation from whatever websites, you know, it's all digital, logical, whereas we talk about valuation being an art, not science, and it's, it's almost a valuation service. Isn't it rather than but that creates what people want is certainty.
[00:17:50] Marion Ellis: What is it worth and why can I what can I do with that? but it's not just a number, you know, and so this is almost like a Frame we [00:18:00] need to do because you're doing the job in context, you know Whether it's for a house purchase whether it's for development appraisal or you know, whatever it is But you know, I need my I need myself.
[00:18:12] Marion Ellis: So so this year I'm you know, trying to do a few more or trying to do some retrofit type training, learn a bit more about that. But I'd say I was a valuer more than anything, you know, what's it worth? Does that affect value? Are the questions that I tend to ask. And for me, as part of my CPD planning up going forward, you know, Oh, that's the kind of thing that I'll be looking at.
[00:18:34] Marion Ellis: Can I ask you about the the PGP? So for those that don't know that's the professional group panels that form part of the knowledge and practice committee that the RI set up and I think there's six or seven of them isn't there? Um, and again we'll put a link in the show notes to the RICS website page.
[00:18:52] Marion Ellis: Um, but what made you want to to get involved in that and what was the process like? So,
[00:18:59] Joshim Uddin: um, [00:19:00] there, there are various panels and I think, uh, following the, the Lord Bishard review, um, the RICS, um, did, that was one of the key focuses to involve different, um, professionals within the industry to, to get together, put their minds together to help better shape the industry, as well as the RICS as an organization.
[00:19:22] Joshim Uddin: Um, the reason why, Okay. I opted to, uh, put my name forward and apply was because I, because I work a lot with development and planning. Um, I work with surveyors as well as planners, and sometimes there's a bit of a, I felt that there could be a bit of a distance between the surveying world and the planning world, and the work I do kind of bridges that a little bit, and those who are in the industry as well, and I felt that because I work in the public sector, I would like to positively, um, help influence and shape [00:20:00] how valuations are undertaken for the purpose of planning viability.
[00:20:04] Joshim Uddin: Um, I think that any panel needs a. broad spectrum of industry people, um, both from the private and public sector. And I wanted to represent the, uh, represent local authorities, uh, the best I can, um, in the way that we approach development and viability in accordance with the NPPF So that was my, that was the reason why I Proceeded with it, and it's interesting because the, the panel discusses a variety of things, um, in our inception meeting, it was not just talking about, say, the latest DCF, um, information data that has come out, but so many other things, sustainability, AI, tech, um, how the RICS gets involved with government and politics, and, um, [00:21:00] some of the initiatives that they Proposing and, um, the voice that the RSS has in, in those matters, and I wanted to represent the local authorities in the, in those sort of discussions, because local authorities don't tend to have, um, huge numbers of valuers within, within, um, uh, councils and development viability.
[00:21:23] Joshim Uddin: I think we're the only full team in London that does what we do, and I felt that it'd be useful to make sure that. I'm not just representing Tower Hamlets. I work with other boroughs. Um, so me and my team were appointed by other local authorities in London. Um, and we worked with them and we wanted to create a, um, a public sector position, um, and make sure that our voice is heard.
[00:21:51] Joshim Uddin: And I felt that this would be an excellent way in doing so. I think
[00:21:56] Marion Ellis: that's a good reminder for people, actually, that, you know, when you [00:22:00] all come together as a panel. Valuation affects so many things, you know, you know, what's happening with, with technology, AI, you know, we see that in the, you know, a lot of surveyors who listen to this on the residential, you know, house purchase side, we're looking up front property information, you know, right now there are mortgage providers out there who could pre approve a property.
[00:22:22] Marion Ellis: As it goes on, on the market, you know, uh, I was looking at a demo of a piece of software the other day where, you know, you could have a look at land that's available, you know, and, uh, you know, you just had all this sort of grid and it can tell you what it's sold for. And, you know, yes, you've got right move and all of those things, but it's just all so wish all.
[00:22:44] Marion Ellis: It all comes up. But you're right, you know, it's conversations you have with government, it's thinking about sustainability. How does that affect value? And I went to, uh, uh, the Harris debate, uh, at RICS. There'll be a recording of it again. I'll put it in the show [00:23:00] notes. There'll be loads of show notes, uh, this time, uh, where they were talking.
[00:23:04] Marion Ellis: It was, the title was something like, do we need to Damage the economy to save the planet. I think was the the title way over my head as a surveyor, but what I What I got from it was that those that want to invest You know, they're looking at these, these things, you know, not just about the return on investment, but they are looking at the social, uh, and sustainable, uh, impact.
[00:23:31] Marion Ellis: But the data and the measurements isn't there. And we're not valuing it that way. And I know a lot of residential surveyors who, you know, still, you know, wonder over, well, do the solar panels add value or not? You know, and it's like, at what point are we going to get to where we need to be? So, again, it's part of that, you can be technically trained, but you've got to do it in context, you know, and be alive to it.
[00:23:52] Marion Ellis: Tell me a bit more about your, about your work at Tower Hamlets. Can, you know, for people listening, they're, you know, they're all over the world, doing [00:24:00] different things. Can you explain sort of a bit more about Tower Hamlets, what it's like, what it's made up of, and a bit about your work?
[00:24:07] Joshim Uddin: Um, right. So I joined the council in, I think 20 and they, they had a development viability service set up.
[00:24:19] Joshim Uddin: Um, however, it was very difficult to recruit to. Um, so the, the posts were not, they were never really filled. Um, and the whole purpose of the, the team was to undertake development appraisals on behalf of. Um, that are submitted as part of planning applications. So the developer. Would submit their planning application and development appraisal in line with, um, national guidance that would demonstrate why they cannot afford to provide the policy compliant level of affordable housing in Tower Hamlets.
[00:24:58] Joshim Uddin: It's 35 percent by [00:25:00] habitable room and the MPDF allows applicants to reduce. their contribution.
[00:25:11] Marion Ellis: NPPF, what's that? The National Planning Framework. Yes.
[00:25:15] Joshim Uddin: December. Yeah. Um, and yeah, so, uh, so basically, um, that was the purpose, um, of the team. Um, we would look at their appraisals. We would do our own review, um, using, uh, market evidence again in line with the NPPF and uh, policy.
[00:25:37] Joshim Uddin: Um, and we'd offer our opinion of value, uh, what the residual land value is, what the benchmark land value is, can the scheme actually afford, um, Contributions, if not, why? Um, and we'd also, um, speak with, uh, quality, uh, quantity surveyors who would look at construction costs for development. [00:26:00] So that's the purpose of it.
[00:26:04] Joshim Uddin: Took a little while to recruit and then. After about a year or so, I became the manager of the team. And at that point I thought, right, I really need to recruit. Otherwise we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing. Uh, at that point we were only using private sector consultants, um, at the time, which were fine, but the council did set up a team for this specific purpose.
[00:26:26] Joshim Uddin: And I was lucky because, um, I went out there and, um, recruited, went through a variety of different, um, kind of platforms to get the message out. I also, I also looked to grow our own, so there were people who weren't surveyors. And I, I kind of spoke to different people in transport planning, in our planning department, told them about how great this is and why we do what we do.
[00:26:56] Joshim Uddin: Since then, uh, we had two people come over from [00:27:00] the planning department, one of whom qualified last year as a, as a surveyor. Um, because he was really interested in it. Um, so it's, it's, it's really well, it's gone really well in that sense with recruitment. Since then, we've been doing all the work in Tower Hamlets.
[00:27:15] Joshim Uddin: Um, I've got a full team of five of us. Um, just recently recruited, um, a graduate from Nottingham Trent University, as well as somebody else from the private sector. And from there, because it was going well, We decided it would be great to offer the service to other local authorities. Right? And this was something that wasn't on, that wasn't, um, planned for now.
[00:27:41] Joshim Uddin: The ambition wasn't to take over the market or anything like that at all. We we're, we're a local authority and we, um, we have our own work to do within the own, within our own council, but where we had kind of gaps where we could fill supporting other boroughs, we thought we'd offer it out. And that's been going really well.
[00:27:58] Joshim Uddin: Um, and now we [00:28:00] work with a number of local authorities, but doing development appraisals for them in other parts of London. And, um, it's, it's, it's been yielding good results. Um, we're able to. Provide a consistent approach. We're able to, um, offer our advice the same way we'd advise our hamlets. We'd advise any other borough that we work with.
[00:28:22] Joshim Uddin: And that's where we got to today. Um, but it was quite a long journey. It's not easy for a local authority to get this position. There was a lot of, kind of, um, there was a lot of governance to it, getting set up, and, yeah, and, you know. I was lucky because our directors and our senior people that are in the council, they're very supportive.
[00:28:43] Joshim Uddin: They, they made, they opened doors for us. Um, and I think that's really, really helped. And, um, we are where we are today because of a variety of different people in the background who made it happen. Um, I don't think it's the work of one or two valuers that [00:29:00] did that. I mean, you know, everyone got together and, um, it's, it's created this this great ensemble which I, which I really enjoy working.
[00:29:09] Joshim Uddin: That's really interesting.
[00:29:10] Marion Ellis: So, so I started My career working for a developer. So do the development appraisals or marketing appraisals. So, you know, how many houses you could load on how many affordable houses can we get away with or not, you know, you know, back in the day. And so, you know, you've got your, your frameworks, and, you know, Every local authority is different, you know, there are, there are lots of, if only things would be, uh, uniform everywhere, but it, but it never is.
[00:29:43] Marion Ellis: Um, uh, but we sort of put that together. So it's interesting that, that your role then is to almost sort of sense check that of, well, can you get more housing on there? Have you really tried? You know, um, are you doing the right thing? [00:30:00] And, um, it's actually reassuring. Now that, uh, to know some of that.
[00:30:05] Joshim Uddin: Yeah, I mean, well, that is the purpose, and I think, um, by policy, local authorities should get them tested, whether it's internal or through a private consultancy.
[00:30:14] Joshim Uddin: Um, but the other good thing about working in the council is it's not just doing report after report. Um, I get involved with setting our community infrastructure levy, um, rates. It's all underpinned by development appraisals. That money comes in for infrastructure. It's not all about housing and intensifying areas.
[00:30:36] Joshim Uddin: Um, a lot of London doesn't have a lot of land left. Um, and I think that's, that's some of the issues that we need to create. Communities and better places. So that's something that I get involved with Um the stuff around ceiling kind where instead of the money you provide infrastructure like parks or hospitals and education facilities Is
[00:30:56] Marion Ellis: this where people talk about section 106?
[00:30:58] Marion Ellis: Yeah,
[00:30:59] Joshim Uddin: so the [00:31:00] affordable housing or non financial contributions would be primarily within Section 106 still is mainly and only for infrastructure that can be used in a particular borough and they'll have rates that are set so if you do a development it's non negotiable you'd need to pay x amount per square meter.
[00:31:19] Joshim Uddin: Um, for the development that you're doing, that would contribute towards infrastructure in the borough. Um, but there's many other things, which I really like, um, working on like small sites contributions. We have a new local plan on its way. Um, the whole thing is, you know, one of the, one of the key elements is, is the plan sound?
[00:31:40] Joshim Uddin: Can you actually deliver X thousands, tens of thousands of homes in the planned period? And that just kicked off recently. So, um, and we're working with a private consultancy on that as well, um, who are advising us, um, on, on how to kind of go about doing that the best we can. So that's one thing I do like, where it's not just report after report.
[00:31:59] Joshim Uddin: And the [00:32:00] other thing, the final thing anyway, is, um, a member of my team is really interested and very, um, very active in, in, in the social engagement side of things. So, she. She really likes to not just do valuations for the sake of viability, but she wants to put a face to the work that we do. Speak to local residents, local people, and community groups, and bring the two together.
[00:32:26] Joshim Uddin: Because otherwise, sometimes valuers can be just sitting behind their computer, typing away, calculating away, and the report just goes out. And I think,
[00:32:37] Marion Ellis: and that's it, isn't it? This goes back to that, you know, is it technology? Is it, you know, valuation isn't math. That's QS, sorting up the numbers. And I've always, excuse me, and I've always thought of it as, um, it's very much about, uh, customer, the consumer, and a lot of the things that I've learned in my career of customer experience is, you know, uh, [00:33:00] you're understanding customer psychology, you know, of, uh, and it's the people behind it, and I suppose it comes back to that valuation being a, Uh, being a, a service.
[00:33:08] Marion Ellis: So it's really encouraging to, uh, to hear. Tell me a bit more about, um, about Tower Hamlets itself. Is it big, large? Yeah,
[00:33:19] Joshim Uddin: it's an inner London borough, um, just on the city fringe, um, and it, it connects with other boroughs such as Newham, uh, Hackney, um, the LLDC, which, um, may no longer exist at some point. Um, but it is a busy borough.
[00:33:37] Joshim Uddin: It's very multicultural. It has... High values, um, especially in certain pockets such as, um, the City Fringe or the Isle of Dogs or where Canary Wharf is. Um, but it's, it's a mixed bag. It's got a lot of, um, new development coming up and has come up. It has a lot of estate regeneration [00:34:00] schemes, um, there's been controversial appeals and committees, there's, there have been small sites that have come forward.
[00:34:09] Joshim Uddin: Um, the overall issue with Tower Hamlets is that it has a huge need. For affordable housing. Housing, yes, but affordable housing need is significantly high. The waiting list is in the tens of thousands for families to get into homes. And that's what brings about the value of the work that we do. For every, for every home that we secure, or we're able to negotiate and discuss the higher contribution level.
[00:34:38] Joshim Uddin: That's families coming into safe housing, safe homes, people who are potentially in dangerous accommodation, people who are in accommodation that has mould in it, it's causing asthma and all these other issues. And I know that our mayor is very, very, um, he is very keen to make sure that we have a lot of [00:35:00] housing coming forward wherever possible.
[00:35:02] Joshim Uddin: And that's what we look to deliver, um, where we can, the best we can. It's, it can be tricky sometimes, but you know, you have to deal with what you have in front of you. Um, but it's, like I said, housing's one thing, but you also need to make sure you're creating good communities. And this is where the work of a valuer in Tower Hamlets is more rounded than just report, report,
[00:35:26] Marion Ellis: report.
[00:35:28] Marion Ellis: And I think if ever there was a great advert for valuers who want to get off the treadmill of just churning out reports is to explore that kind of work. Yeah, uh, for sure. And, and as you're, you're, you were speaking there. I, I was just reflecting, um, uh, a surveyor I know deals with super prime, high value stuff, and he talk, he always talks about how value, you know, value is knowledge.
[00:35:55] Marion Ellis: It's power creates certainty. You can do things with it. Yes. You've gotta [00:36:00] get it right. And it makes a difference, doesn't it? Just at the other end as well, you know, um, of. of the impact and the difference that it can, that it can really make. Um, you talked about at the start about social value Um, you know, in your, uh, the time that you've had at Tower Hamlets or not, what have you been most proud of in your career?
[00:36:27] Joshim Uddin: Well, I, I feel that, so look, my, my background was, I actually, I actually grew up in Tower Hamlets and, um, then I moved to Newham, then I moved to Essex, and, um, when I qualified or during the time when I was doing my ADD, one of the things that I wanted to do was use the education knowledge that I was Gifted with or had benefited from and bring it back right to the point where I grew up and I, and I know what it's like for people who can't [00:37:00] get larger homes, family homes or homes that they can feel comfortable in permanently or they don't need to always move around, which is why I felt, look, let's use that, bring it back and bring about some sort of social change and value.
[00:37:15] Joshim Uddin: So it was all about kind of. Making sure that the residents were represented well, and I felt at that point that I had gone through the relative education system to be able to now start to do that and grow my career and that's kind of what I'm really proud of that I I used that not just to not just to go corporate and try and you know Reach partner and the rest of it.
[00:37:42] Joshim Uddin: The whole purpose was to bring it back and because I'm from that sort of the group of people who needed housing at a certain point, who needed more infrastructure or schools and the rest of it. Um, I'm not saying it was wholly [00:38:00] poverty struck or anything, but it would have been better if there was a bit more availability.
[00:38:04] Joshim Uddin: Um, and I think that's what, um, I am proud of, and I think that's what the council overall look to do, is provide an excellent service for local residents. I think that's every council. Um, and I think that, that is, that, that it has that social value that, that we as professionals should have. It's almost, it's almost like, uh, me saying, right, this is what my heart is telling me to do.
[00:38:32] Joshim Uddin: Um, and I, and I'm quite proud of that actually. And I have, I have, I have a son, and I, and I'd like for him to kind of take that on board as he grows up and not kind of always think, right, when I grow up, I want to be a high flying this or that, and just get rich. It's not always about that. And I think that's, it's that balance that we want to, want to say.
[00:38:53] Marion Ellis: It is and again, you're making me really reflect here because so I grew up in a, [00:39:00] on a council estate in North Wales. Um, it wasn't the worst, but it wasn't the best. Um, and that got me really interested in property. I suppose I didn't have the role models, but I was aware of the. My mom bought her council house under the right to buy scheme, which is the worst decision ever because she was told she didn't need a survey because it was a terrorist and it had sulfate attack and it was just a nightmare.
[00:39:25] Marion Ellis: Um, and. You know, and part of me was, you know, are there ways that I can give back to the community and part of me just wanted to run away. I did not want to, you know, it's just that, that, you know, education is, is again, knowledge and power, but it can move you, get you out of places as well. Um, and, but also there was an opportunity.
[00:39:47] Marion Ellis: So, for, you know, this was 20, 25 years ago now, you know, there wasn't a job nearby. There weren't motorways to get to most of Wales, to Wales by then. Uh, you know, but there wasn't the opportunity [00:40:00] for me to find work. And I moved away because of work, because there wasn't, wasn't anywhere. And I lived in London for a time, did the house share thing.
[00:40:07] Marion Ellis: Um, I'm now living what I call Middle Earth in the middle of the country. From, you know, I can reach everywhere. Um, But you've got to, which is why that social value piece and the community is, is so important to, to everything we do, because you can educate people, but how do you retain them, you know, and, and, and keep them in and, and.
[00:40:29] Marion Ellis: You've got to want to be there rather than that sort of escapism and it's it's a balance of you know Not just a development of houses It is about the schools about the education the people that come together then you can I could as you're talking I can see how That community, you know through the work that you do actually has such a far wide reaching reaching impact then Then ever then I fully appreciated.
[00:40:54] Marion Ellis: I think it's quite inspiring stuff. Josh. Thank you Mary[00:41:00]
[00:41:01] Marion Ellis: When I do these podcasts, I normally come to the end and think, oh, I'm gonna retrain as a , so I'm gonna have a new job. Now this time in my Marian's magical world of, uh, careers, uh, out there. Um, but no, I think that, I think that's really good. And I, and, and it's great to see how you've. You know, you've seen the opportunity, you've been able to recruit and find the right, the right people.
[00:41:25] Marion Ellis: And for a local authority then to create a service that other local authorities can use. Again, that just makes sense. There's no point reinventing the wheel when you're all in the, in the same boat. Tell me about recruitment. Um, so was this your sort of first time as a, as a line manager? Because that's, that's some responsibility too.
[00:41:45] Marion Ellis: But what was the recruitment process for surveyors like? So
[00:41:50] Joshim Uddin: the team was initially set up in 2015 and it had one person in the team for a couple of years, and then I came along in 2017. After that, [00:42:00] the person who was there for had left, so I was alone. And it came to about 20, I'd say 2018 to 2019, where I, I basically thought, right, I need to get moving with the recruitment of this, um, a lot better because before that I did go out once and I didn't really get a lot of interest.
[00:42:20] Joshim Uddin: And come 2018, I recruited an internal member of staff from our transport planning team, um, who was the person, um, that I mentioned qualified afterwards as well, as a, as a valuer. And. It started to gain a bit of momentum. Um, I went out to recruit on RICS Recruit, RTPI, every other kind of portal you can go to.
[00:42:47] Joshim Uddin: And I was receiving applications. I always received more graduate applications than kind of senior valuers. Um, and I think I sifted through quite a few of the graduates, [00:43:00] and I sifted through a few of the more senior ones. And... I've always said this, when it comes to recruitment, if you want to work in the local authority, you need to have a certain, certain kind of a personality about you in order to do that.
[00:43:16] Joshim Uddin: It's not a corporate environment where, you know, you're, you're, you're going into a full room of suits. Um, you need to have a passion for what you're doing. It's not a place where. You know, you're going to be really looking for the next bonus or anything like that. And I've always stuck to that, and that has, that has been by my side a lot.
[00:43:39] Joshim Uddin: So, I recruited a principal valuer who is still with us. Absolutely fantastic. And together we've, we've, we've driven it forward. And... I recruited a graduate a second time around after the first one, um, the first graduate I recruited found an alternative place of employment [00:44:00] and that was from Nottingham and Trent University and I did get quite a lot of interest this time around, only because the momentum was growing.
[00:44:07] Joshim Uddin: I think that the word was going out there and people were starting to realize, actually, this could be pretty good. I say that, his parents are planners, so it's probably, yeah, um, but then. Afterwards, I recruited another senior surveyor who is from the private sector and, um, she again has a huge kind of interest in the social value side of things.
[00:44:32] Joshim Uddin: So, I think the reason why I found it difficult to recruit was a. Back then it wasn't as established, and B is a local authority. So I didn't think that it was kind of established as well. And I think now things have changed a bit, because I think people have started to realize and notice what we do, why we do it, and the fact that we do it well.
[00:44:54] Joshim Uddin: And I think that's what has really driven this a bit more. But [00:45:00] it wasn't as easy, because it has been a long process, if you think about it. It started in 2015. gained momentum in 2018, 2019, and since then that's been growing. But, you know, usually you go out to recruit within a few months, you're done and someone's in and you're moving along.
[00:45:19] Marion Ellis: Well, you say that, but I think surveying is really hard to recruit. Um, I get asked regularly, Marion, can you help me find somebody? You know, uh, for a job for whatever, or, um, you know, occasionally I've put a post on LinkedIn about something or other, you know, uh, the firm's closed down or something like that.
[00:45:42] Marion Ellis: And, and it's interesting because what you then get is people posting saying, I'm looking for a surveyor. This is the salary. These are the postcodes, you know, zero hours or da da. And you just think it's so. It sort of just, uh, dehumanizes the whole thing. These [00:46:00] are, you know, experienced individuals and it's all about the bottom line.
[00:46:03] Marion Ellis: Now, you know, anybody who's financially struggling, you know, you're going to, yes, you're going to look at those jobs. But at this point, I would also say there's Lionheart out there who's to support surveyors if anyone's having any, uh, you know, challenges. Um, You know, but it's just all about the money, the hours, the jobs, you know, the number of instructions and things you might, might be doing.
[00:46:24] Marion Ellis: And it's, it's awful to see. It makes me. You know, it's great to have that support, but we've been, you know, to say, hey, we've got some jobs going here, but then they get very particular, you know, we want somebody with so much experience, um, you know, they've got to be at a certain level, or, uh, and the thing is, as surveyors, you know, you talked about your team, they've all got different backgrounds, they all bring brilliant and different dynamics to the shape of the team.
[00:46:51] Marion Ellis: And I suppose with a graduate, um, what you want is somebody newly qualified, so you're not paying for their training, you know, which is the, the other thing, [00:47:00] um, you know, uh, sort of, uh, bringing them in. But then if you're then looking at other jobs. Sorry, other surveyors. So, you know, here's me, you know, Marion's recruitment, looking for my job again, you know, it's like, this sounds great, but for me to move over, I would then need to retrain, do some refreshing, you know, sort of do different stuff.
[00:47:21] Marion Ellis: And as it comes back to that, uh, You know, the, the generation of surveyors, uh, value is not just the next generation. Uh, we've all got some good stuff. We might just be a bit rusty and sometimes that just needs to be made clear or, you know, for each of us to remember that, well, we can do this. I used to do it, but it was a different circumstance.
[00:47:42] Marion Ellis: And, you know, um, as, as surveyors, we, we move into different sectors. You know, um, I think it's quite hard actually to, uh, to define the different types, you know, you've got these six or seven PGPs, [00:48:00] you know, and, you know, for example, my area residential that come into residential property and undervaluation, you know, and, and, and both, they're sort of quite, quite linked and at some point you've got to have that, that hierarchy at the top, and I know in the surveyor hub, we've got quite a few commercial valuers and surveyors who do the odd flat above a shop, Say, but they wouldn't call themselves residential, you know, because they don't do enough of it or it's a different, different pathway.
[00:48:27] Marion Ellis: Um, so when you see a job advertised that just says surveyor or valuer, you've got to look behind, but then as a recruiter, you've also got to be more open. So, okay, well, what can they bring and what support can I give to
[00:48:41] Joshim Uddin: find that match? Yeah, it's always a two way street, I think, when you're recruiting. Um, what people are looking for, what you are looking for, those things do need to match.
[00:48:51] Joshim Uddin: And I've, I've found more, I've found better, um, I've had better luck with the younger [00:49:00] generation who, majority of the people in my team are in the younger side, um, are on the younger side, and um, they come with different, from different backgrounds of their experiences. I've always thought, look, if you have an interest, we don't mind spending the time to teach you the things that we do.
[00:49:24] Joshim Uddin: And you have other valuable skills you can bring forward to the team. And that has worked. And it's worked really well. I think when you make it very, very cryptic, we want X, Y, Z, you're gonna, what you do is you kind of, um, you, you remove yourself or you, you get your, you limit your chances of failure.
[00:49:44] Joshim Uddin: Getting someone good.
[00:49:45] Marion Ellis: It's a, it's a, uh, prescriptive, isn't it, rather than cryptic. So, you know, very prescriptive, this is what I want. Whereas, on the other hand, it's so vague. Would anybody be able to know what, you know, what they, how they, how they fit [00:50:00] in? Um, and that's got to change, really, if we don't want surveyors to leave the sector.
[00:50:05] Marion Ellis: You know, I think that's got to, uh, got to change in some way, so that we, we can all add value, hang about being surveyors.
[00:50:17] Joshim Uddin: Can I ask
[00:50:18] Marion Ellis: you about the, uh, RICS awards? Yes. Had you entered before? Was that your first
[00:50:24] Joshim Uddin: time? First time, um, I entered, um, no, I haven't, I haven't actually. Um, I was really grateful for, uh, for the nomination, um, uh, from my team and manager.
[00:50:36] Joshim Uddin: And, uh, I thought it was, uh, it was a very splendid surprise. Um, hadn't, hadn't, uh, really expected it. So it was, it was, Definitely something that blew me away a little bit. Um, the nomination in itself, and I think when I turned up on the day, some of the names I saw, they were pretty big names, and they were, you know, pretty well skilled at what they do.[00:51:00]
[00:51:00] Joshim Uddin: So I kind of just went along thinking, Okay, well, we'll see. Um, we'll see if it does. If not, at the very least, we'll find this. It's fantastic. Um, but then, when Nicole read out my name, um, I was a bit stunned. You know in these situations, people always ask, Oh, how did you react? There's not, there's not so much you can kind of say.
[00:51:22] Joshim Uddin: You can kind of, you're kind of just stunned, and you just walk up to the stage, just nervously, and shake the hands and take the pictures and quickly get off before you get too embarrassed. Um, but no, it was, it was, it was really good, and I like the fact that The work that we're doing is recognized, um, by our governing body, um, and the industry, and it's not something just, just the local authorities doing on the side.
[00:51:49] Joshim Uddin: It's, it's, it's work that makes a huge impact and change. Um, and it was, it was, it was good to get that recognition. I know the team and [00:52:00] service, our whole council was really, really, really proud, which is really nice. Family was proud and it was, it was good. It was one of those things that a lot of values probably kind of, um, you know, really want one day.
[00:52:11] Joshim Uddin: I, I always wanted it at one when I, when I first qualified, I thought, right. I, I, I want that because I, I had, um. Another, another senior member of Southfield 1A a long time ago, when I was at the VO, and I thought, I'd like that trophy on my bloody desk. And um, I just kind of lost momentum with it over, over the years because The local authority is not a, is not a RICS kind of firm like some of, you know, a full blown surveying firm.
[00:52:39] Joshim Uddin: So you kind of lose touch and that's what, I think the award made me feel like, no, we shouldn't be detached from the, from the governing body. We shouldn't be detached from the RICS. We should all be a part of this. And I think from there it kind of stemmed, right, a need to get. In, with the RSCS a lot more actively raise the voices of the local [00:53:00] authorities, the public sector residents and the rest of it, um, and I think that's, that's gone really well.
[00:53:05] Joshim Uddin: Um, but I, I, I, yeah, it was, it was, it was, um, a really nice, a really nice, uh, occasion and, um, I really enjoyed it. The night was wonderful as well. I came across a lot of old people that I met, um, that I used to work with before, and, um, it was, it was really good reuniting with, like, my old, um, university lecturer, Kate Taylor, who actually, um, who I knew from the VOA as well, um, and many others.
[00:53:33] Joshim Uddin: So it was, it was good. I, I came across, um, The manager of my friend is a value and he his boss was on my table I wrote weirdly. I only found out towards the end of the night. So, you know, it's it's a small world So
[00:53:49] Marion Ellis: there never seems to be enough time No, I think with some of the these awards, you know to network get to know people.
[00:53:55] Marion Ellis: It's almost like you need to have formal bit and then you can go and [00:54:00] chat and then come back again, you know, otherwise when you first get there it's like you're not quite sure who to talk to and don't recognize everyone because they're all all glammed up and uh, yeah, I just imagine you there with your, you know, Oscar winning face ready for the, for the camera, um, but it, but it is nice and what a great, um, You know, great opportunity, you know, to showcase what you do at a local authority, which will then help with not just your recruitment, but with other, you know, uh, recruitments in that, in that sector.
[00:54:34] Marion Ellis: Um, uh, and there's something that you mentioned, uh, um, earlier on was, you know, you were the only one, the only valuer and that, you know, that is the case for a lot of surveyors and valuers, you know, they're the only one in their firm or anyone in their department. And. You know, the likes like the R I C S or depression is this sort of drawstring that sort of pulls us [00:55:00] together and that we're not alone.
[00:55:02] Marion Ellis: Um, you know, we, we can often feel quite isolated in our, in our work and, you know, but we've got to find ways to, to connect, feel part of it, but then also in, in return, you know, Places that you can go if you've got queries or or or help and support and and I think that's where going forward with Bashard and everything else that that's come out of it.
[00:55:25] Marion Ellis: There'll be much more more engagement So just it's been really lovely to talk to you. I've learned a lot. Thank you for so much.
[00:55:33] Joshim Uddin: Thank you. Thank you Mary for having
[00:55:34] Marion Ellis: Thanks for listening. If you're new to the podcast, do check out some of our past recordings. And when you're ready, you can leave us a review on Google or Apple iTunes, or you can buy me a coffee. All the links are in the show notes. I'll see you next time.
