George Hooton
[00:00:00] George Hooton: we as a profession have so much influence over the built environment, right? We have so much sort of control and power into the sort of physical barriers at play for millions of people in this country. You know, if we talk about one in five or 20 percent of people have a disability, um, you know, then someone has to do something.
[00:00:23] George Hooton: I feel a sense of personal responsibility rather than a, you know, a sort of personal drive or think I'm going to benefit from it greatly. I know that something has to change. Something has to shift because the challenges that I face, I don't think are particularly, you know, fair or reasonable. Um, and I don't really see anyone, um, making great strides, uh, you know, in this area.
[00:00:51] George Hooton: So, um, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a significant challenge. I don't think, you know, I think [00:01:00] I'll, I'll make a tiny little impact. But if that You know, amounts to anything, then it will be worth while my, my sort of caveat is has always been. I recognize I'm a very lucky, privileged individual. Um, you know, I, I've sort of had a good education, good family, you know, and I've sort of got all the things I generally need to have a, you know, a fairly warm Happy and healthy life.
[00:01:32] George Hooton: My wheelchair is a very fancy wheelchair. It's sort of, um, you know, a Romeo It's a Segway technology, which is really fast and nimble and fun. So, you know, that side of things is really enjoyable So, you know, I recognize that I'm very fortunate and very lucky and I probably would be fine if You know, as it is right.
[00:01:54] George Hooton: But I know that, as I say, millions of other people don't have, um, those [00:02:00] sorts of privileges. Um, and so, yeah, I need to sort of lay a better pathway or an easier pathway. And if that means that I have to, you know, um, do public speaking or fortunate enough to go on a podcast like this, Um, then that's what you have to do.
[00:02:22] Marion Ellis: Welcome to the Surveyor Hub podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do. I'm Marion Ellis, and today I catch up with RICS Matrix Award winner, George Hooton, a general practice commercial surveyor based in Bristol and working his way through his APC. I've done many podcast interviews or chats, as I like to call them, with surveyors and I have to say what a privilege it is to have had the opportunity to speak quite frankly with George about his disability and the physical [00:03:00] challenges he faces as a young man and how as a surveyor he wants to make a difference for others.
[00:03:05] Marion Ellis: I hope you enjoy this podcast.
[00:03:11] Marion Ellis: Welcome to the podcast, George.
[00:03:13] George Hooton: thank you for having me.
[00:03:14] Marion Ellis: Yeah, now you're, um, over in Bristol, is that right?
[00:03:18] George Hooton: That's right. Yeah,
[00:03:19] Marion Ellis: Yeah, so tell me a bit about what you do there as a surveyor. What flavor are you?
[00:03:23] George Hooton: yeah, absolutely. So I am a general practicing surveyor. So I do a bit of everything from agency and lease advisory management, all those sorts of things. So, um, I work for Hootons commercial, which is a private independent practice here in Bristol. And we're quite a small team of some Very competent experts in their fields.
[00:03:53] George Hooton: And, um, so yeah, we're, we're a small team, but we, we like to dabble in a bit of everything. And so [00:04:00] we're a general practice, uh, covers the Southwest, but as I say, based in Bristol.
[00:04:05] Marion Ellis: Um, and it's a, it's a nice, um, you don't come across too many, or I don't anyway, general practice. Uh, practices is that, if that's what you call them, uh, these days. But a great, you are doing your A PC, is that right? So it's a great place to, um, apart from a family business, which I'll ask you about, but to get sort of a good variety, which is one of the things you need for, for getting chartered.
[00:04:33] George Hooton: Yeah, it seems it seems very rare. I do know very few general practice. So there is it seems that People are typically either siloed or personally choose to focus in a specific area and that's understandable because it's not easy It's a very much a balancing act So yes, it is it is quite rare Obviously with APC's, you know people do their [00:05:00] rotations, you know, everyone has to do their valuations and often go into Agency or needs advisory in some capacity, but it is quite rare for someone to to do All of those together.
[00:05:12] George Hooton: I think personally, they're all obviously complimentary.
[00:05:16] Marion Ellis: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:05:16] George Hooton: know, agency, um, helps with management. And, you know, your relationships with your tenants can help with your lease advisory. So, you know, all these sorts of things go in together. And from my perspective, it helps me get a better and broader understanding of my own work, as well as the industry.
[00:05:39] Marion Ellis: And you said it's a family business, so did you always want to be a surveyor from the age of seven?
[00:05:45] George Hooton: no,
[00:05:46] Marion Ellis: Tell us a bit about your journey, how you got there
[00:05:48] George Hooton: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, as you say, um, so my father set up his own practice about 30 years ago. Um, my mother, not too dissimilar to yourself, set up a [00:06:00] residential, she was in, um, the residential market, um, she had a residential agency, um, and a serviced heart business. Um, so we very much come from a property, uh, background, but I think, you know, growing up, people would come up to you and say, are you going, you know, are you following the parents into property?
[00:06:22] George Hooton: And I went, absolutely not. Um, you know, I think you tend to try and rebel against maybe a little bit. So I tried to stay away from it as long as I could. Um, but I think once you know the industry or the benefits it provides to people that are in it, it's, um, it's, uh, It's very difficult, um, to, to avoid. So I did actually do an undergraduate in politics and international relations.
[00:06:50] George Hooton: Um, and then started going down this sort of civil service route, working for parliament. Um, but, um, ended up doing my master's [00:07:00] in real estate and finding myself here, sort of four, five years down the line and I'm still here, quite happy. Um. Yeah,
[00:07:09] Marion Ellis: parents still work in the business? What's it like working with, with family members? Cause, cause quite frankly mine would drive me nuts.
[00:07:17] George Hooton: it's definitely not advisable. Um, it has its, it has its challenges. So, uh, my mother retired. Um, those, those were sort of separate businesses. My father still very much in, in the business working. Um, so it is that I, I personally love it. Um, you know, both my parents obviously running their own businesses, it tends to be the conversation as you grow up and you can't help but eavesdrop and hear and maybe throw your two cents into the conversation as well.
[00:07:51] George Hooton: So it felt very natural and we're a very close family. So, um,
[00:07:56] Marion Ellis: I
[00:07:56] George Hooton: the whole, it's worked out very well.
[00:07:57] Marion Ellis: yeah, I know a few, um, and we've had on the podcast, [00:08:00] a few, you know, sort of daughter and father surveying businesses or, um, Just, just before we started the podcast, I was chatting to you about Michael Holden. Um, so, so we both got a bit of a frog in our throats. And, um, when I, the day I interviewed Michael, I had a really tickly cough.
[00:08:22] Marion Ellis: And, uh, I, I paused it so that I could cough, but then disappeared, got a cup of tea, came back and Michael was still talking. Um, I digress, but Michael is a very much a family man and has a, you know, lots of his sons and things in the, in the business. Um, but I guess it's, it's interesting when you have a business like that and you bring the family in because it is something you must be very You know, families are very proud of, but then when you've got other people that come in, that's when the, or, you know, the, say outsiders, but I mean, non family members, it changes the dynamics of, you know, of how things are and quite a [00:09:00] complicated thing to, to navigate, but I suppose you just do, don't you, you just got to be, you know, sort of open and make sure it's a well run business, but, um,
[00:09:10] George Hooton: Yeah. Well, I mean, it was, it's, it's never been just the two of us, you know, he's always had. You know, his partners in the business. Um, and so I was very
[00:09:20] Marion Ellis: what I would say, I guess what I was thinking there were just expectation,
[00:09:23] George Hooton: Yeah, no, that's totally understandable. And, um, you know, this was not my original plan, let's put it that way. Um, you know, I finished my master's sort of.
[00:09:35] George Hooton: Tail end of 2019. Um, and so very, very quickly, the pandemic hits and, you know, I needed to start my ABC process and, you know, a conversation was had with going, you know, you need to start amassing this experience. I worked for a developer previously. Um, But, you know, I needed to start my APC and so he said, well, [00:10:00] why don't you sort of come in for a bed and, you know, build up your experience once the pandemic dies out a bit, you can go off.
[00:10:06] George Hooton: Um, but unfortunately I caught the bug and haven't, haven't left yet. So yeah,
[00:10:13] Marion Ellis: we, I came across you, uh, at the Matrix Awards, I was going to say Young Surveyor of the Year award then, but the Matrix Awards back in, uh, October of this year, we're recording this in, uh, in December, don't know where the time's gone, um, and Uh, I was there with, uh, Chris Moran who kindly invited me, he was one of the nominees for the residential sector, I think it was, uh, category.
[00:10:39] Marion Ellis: And, um, I was there sort of to the side at the, at the back and they called their name out and George Hooton has, he's won and I looked over and I saw you whiz right up and I thought, crikey, he's keen. And then when I looked, I realized that you were on wheels.
[00:10:58] George Hooton: yeah, [00:11:00] yeah, absolutely.
[00:11:01] Marion Ellis: Which, uh, well, I was surprised about, um, and then I thought, Oh, crikey, you know, I just made an assumption there that you're really keen to run
[00:11:09] George Hooton: Well,
[00:11:10] Marion Ellis: for this award.
[00:11:11] Marion Ellis: I don't know, maybe it was the glass of wine I'd had or whatever. But tell me a bit about the awards. Had you ever been to those awards before? Have you been nominated? Tell me a bit about your experience
[00:11:24] George Hooton: No, no. Um, my, my experience was, was very positive. Um, it wasn't something I was very aware of, um, to be truthfully honest. Um, so I didn't really know what to expect going into it. Um, I think, you know, as you sort of touched upon, I'm a, I'm a wheelchair user. I have a physical disability. It's a. Neuromuscular condition.
[00:11:53] George Hooton: And so, um, I started using a wheelchair about the age of 25, [00:12:00] um, 24, 25, something like that. So it's, you know, only been a couple years, um, really that I needed to use that. Um, um, but, but recognizing when I, when I came into the industry and I started networking and I started meeting people, I really recognized that I was, That You know, the only one that sort of looked like myself, you know, I didn't see anyone else in the industry.
[00:12:25] George Hooton: That's what resembled me. And, um, you know that that's a very difficult thing to do. I think networking on the whole or, you know, putting yourself out there is difficult for anyone. But it's even harder when, um, you know, maybe the audience doesn't necessarily reflect you or it's definitely an extra challenge.
[00:12:45] George Hooton: Um, so sort of recognizing that, recognizing that this. the challenges in the industry, the general inaccessibility of the built environment. I've sort of taken on a sort of personal responsibility [00:13:00] to raise awareness, um, for the disability community, for accessibility in the built environment. And so through my work.
[00:13:10] George Hooton: Of that, I've met more and more people who sort of said, have you seen this or do you know this person as you sort of kindly done, you know, introduce me to other people that you think it's worth me having a conversation with. Um, and so that's sort of how I've. Bound my way into organizations like Matrix and, uh, hence the awards.
[00:13:34] George Hooton: Yeah.
[00:13:34] Marion Ellis: Yeah. And congratulations, because they're not, not an easy thing to, you know, to, um,
[00:13:41] George Hooton: Well, I thought I had no, no chance to be truthfully honest. I thought at best it was going to be a nice dinner and, uh, you know, fun event. Um, you know, I was up against some very, very impressive surveys from some very impressive firms, um, as well. So yeah, I had no [00:14:00] expectations. It very much came as a surprise.
[00:14:02] George Hooton: Um, So yeah, I'm very,
[00:14:06] Marion Ellis: and, and one of the things, you know, when I've, when I've chatted to, um, people who've been nominated or, or won before, um, it's great to get the accolade, but then it's the, well, what do you do with this? All of a sudden you've got a platform. You know, and I've, I've plonked you on a, on a podcast here now.
[00:14:21] Marion Ellis: Have you done a podcast before?
[00:14:23] George Hooton: No, no, no. This is the first
[00:14:25] Marion Ellis: So, so, um, this will be, I was gonna say the most unprofessional one, but the most informal one you'll, you'll probably do to, to start you off. But you, but you have this platform. And with that, again, comes responsibility and expectation of, you know, you put yourself out there to talk about particular issues or to champion, you know, whatever.
[00:14:44] Marion Ellis: And all of a sudden you'll You can put the pressure on yourself. Am I doing enough? You know, what do I do? How do I put myself out there and, um, you know, that, that's quite a pressure, I think, particularly for younger people, if I can put it, put it that way, you're all, all you youngsters. Um, [00:15:00] but the more, when it's important to you, push yourself through it.
[00:15:05] Marion Ellis: You know, so you do uncomfortable things like go on a podcast with Marianne Ellis, or you, you, you know, you, you learn new skills, you do new things because it's worth it because of the message that you're, you're putting out there and it really matters. And disability is something that, um, uh, for lots of different reasons I've become aware of more these days.
[00:15:27] Marion Ellis: And you've got the hidden disabilities, so we're talking about neurodiversity, but the physical challenges that people have are still. We're so way behind where we, we, we should, we should be and that, it just seems incredibly cruel, you know, um, and I, and, you know, as you were, um. You were talking there, I was just reflecting when I was pregnant and I used to commute we'd get a badge that said baby on board and you can see the bump.
[00:15:54] Marion Ellis: Um, but when you're in a, in a situation where, you know, you said you didn't get, you know, [00:16:00] in a wheelchair straight away so you've obviously had a bit of a journey to get there. You know, you wouldn't have a badge that says, I might need to sit down sometime. And what would people think of that? You know, and, and there's a lot of judgment around, around some of it, but I guess you sort of see that everywhere now, do you?
[00:16:16] Marion Ellis: Or has it really changed perspective?
[00:16:18] George Hooton: Yeah, most definitely. Um, it's my, as you sort of say, my disability has changed. It, it sort of deteriorates. And so, you know, it's been from the built environment being. A bit tricky to, very tricky. And, and, um, you know, I've really sort of understood the, the layers. Um, and now reaching the point of, um, you know, requiring wheelchair access, you understand, you know, how, how difficult that is in your experience of, of the world.
[00:16:52] George Hooton: Very much changes. Um, it's, it's very difficult when we're talking about. Um, D [00:17:00] and I and diversity and inclusion and things like that, um, you know, how, how do you, how do you deal with these very diverse and difficult groups that, you know, in disability itself, it's a very broad community. Um, and so how do you represent, you know, such a ray, um, of people and, you know, disability is, you know, probably one of the hardest.
[00:17:24] George Hooton: Um, groups to to facilitate when we talk about having a diverse diverse workforce. Um, because it's not just about trying to encourage greater gender equality or people of sort of marginalized groups or ethnic minorities, whereby, um, you know, it's it's more of a shift of of culture and, um You know, reducing some biases in the workplace, you know, very, very difficult to do and you still have to do it for disability, but you are talking about arguably, [00:18:00] you know, retrofitting buildings.
[00:18:03] George Hooton: Um, which is very complex and very expensive, but also our transport system is very bad. Um, you know, I was in London at the start of the week and, you know, getting on, getting on trains, you know, there's no level access, you rely on people and have to hope someone's there to get you on. Um, you know, you might have bikes blocking access and things like that.
[00:18:30] George Hooton: And then the London Underground is. A nightmare for everyone. And, um, seemingly a lot, lot worse for myself, especially when people, you know, even who work, I was quite amazed when, when I went down, I was trying to get from Paddington to Waterloo. I must've spoken with five different people in the station, each giving me different answers as to which stations are accessible, what has step three, you know, what is, you know, which have escalators and things like that.
[00:18:59] George Hooton: Um, [00:19:00] so yeah, we, we have, uh, Big, big challenge here, and I suppose the difficulty, you know, going back to what you were saying about before, you know, there's a lot of personal responsibility to get out there, you know, it's an important cause and you feel like you need to do something about it. Um, but certain things are, you know, enough to put someone off entirely.
[00:19:24] Marion Ellis: Well, you're just talking about this, this journey into London. I'm just thinking that's exhausting. And if you, you weren't confident enough, you know, um, You wouldn't ask five people where to go, you know, you've got to learn to advocate for your, for yourself, and it's good that you've been able to do that, but just getting to that event sounds absolutely exhausting.
[00:19:47] Marion Ellis: I hope it was worth it.
[00:19:48] George Hooton: Yes, yes.
[00:19:51] Marion Ellis: But these are the things that we've got, we've got to consider, haven't we? And, and I suppose being, working in the built environment sector, [00:20:00] you know, it's almost if we can't, Look after our own almost, you know, then how can we then, you know, design and support a built environment that, that serves everybody.
[00:20:10] Marion Ellis: We've got to start noticing some of these things.
[00:20:13] George Hooton: Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, and I'm not going to say that I have those answers. Um, but it does seem that it seems remarkable to me that, um, you know, we still seem to be building things that don't make sense. Um, to me, you know, why we have a, we're building new train stations that don't have level access confuses me.
[00:20:40] George Hooton: Um, you know, I should caveat that, you know, I'm not an engineer, you know, that there may be some sort of justification why they can't do it. But to me, it seems like a very obvious, um, sort of solution. You know, I think one of the greatest difficulties of having a disability [00:21:00] or disability as a whole, I suppose.
[00:21:02] George Hooton: Is the fact that, um, by having, um, an inaccessible built environment really takes a lot of the independence, um, you know, out of it, you have to rely on someone to get a ramp to put you on the train. Um, you know, and if that person isn't there or they're not sufficiently skilled or knowledgeable, as I sort of touched on before, um, you know, that's, that's really difficult.
[00:21:27] George Hooton: So yes, I mean, it makes, it makes things a lot more difficult, but, um, you know,
[00:21:34] Marion Ellis: And, and the thing is, yeah, and the thing is, is there's, there's benefits for all. Cause if you're talking about step free access on and off the train and that you need help with that. If it was step free, that would help everybody with dodgy knees. It would help mothers with babies and, and little toddlers and, and whatnot.
[00:21:57] Marion Ellis: Um, I suppose there's [00:22:00] a different way of thinking of it, rather than thinking of the list of the, the what ifs, or what if this person had, or what if, you know, when there's almost like a, all the different, Various diversity needs that we had and think of it as a to do list or how, you know, sort of like twisting and contorting yourself to accommodate every single different variety that's out there.
[00:22:22] Marion Ellis: Whether we are better off approaching it as a, well, if we know that everybody is different and we approach it knowing these things that if everybody is consistently different, that's the constant, you know,
[00:22:37] George Hooton: I think, um, I hope this is right. But I think, um, universal design. I think I think that's the right, um, term. The idea is if you sort of built if you build for, um, you know, the elderly community, um, you know, those potentially with young children, [00:23:00] those with disabilities and things like that, you're not taking away anything from those that are more able.
[00:23:06] George Hooton: Um, you know, I think, I think it was Premier Inn did, did a quite good job. They, um, did one of their rooms using universal design. Now, at first glance, it looked like an ordinary room. You know, it looked like this sort of standard hotel room, but they did certain things. Um, sort of, I think it was hollowing out the underside of the bed so that, you know, someone could put a hoist or something underneath there.
[00:23:34] George Hooton: Right. So they're sort of building or constructing things in a certain way that allows everyone to use it, but you're not actually taking away. So rather than designing for the majority by designing for everyone, um, you know, everyone can now use those facilities in the same way.
[00:23:54] Marion Ellis: that's a really nice. I like that term, universal design, if it's not, if it's not a thing, we can say you invented
[00:23:59] George Hooton: [00:24:00] Well, there we go. Yeah, I hope that is right. I'm gonna have to Google it after
[00:24:03] Marion Ellis: yeah, that's, that's, that's a nice way to, a really nice way to, to approach these things. And I think it's just a kind thing to do, you know, it's, it's kind to think about the person and not just, you know, the, the physical aspects of it, but
[00:24:18] George Hooton: think it mainly the thing is, it makes sense. You know, we have an aging population. Um, and so we need to now factor, you know, this growing demographic in when we talk about diversity in the workplace. Um, you know, when I go and I do sort of panels or I, you know, go to these events and I speak with these people, um, what's really interesting is the, the conversation's changing or the mentality is changing.
[00:24:51] George Hooton: Whereas before it was seen as sort of a kindness or a charitable thing to do, you know, Give [00:25:00] jobs to these people, you know, they deserve an opportunity as well kind of thing. And now it's shifting to, well, actually now it makes business sense,
[00:25:08] Marion Ellis: yeah, yeah.
[00:25:09] George Hooton: Um, you know, by having a diverse workforce, you now have a more creative team, you know, you're able to problem solve challenges when people, you know, talk, um, you know, specifically again about disability.
[00:25:25] George Hooton: The reason it's front of mine is because I went to the AbilityRE. Event for International Day of People with Disabilities on Tuesday, so sort of front of mind and one of the speakers sort of called out to the crowd and says, you know, what are, you know, why do you think that we should be employing more people with disabilities in, in real estate.
[00:25:53] George Hooton: And you know, the thing is, we're really good problem solvers, we're really good at adapting because we have to, you know, it's, [00:26:00] it's, it's part of our, um, sort of daily thing where, you know, you are faced with a barrier and now you have to find a creative solution to that. And so, you know, that very much benefited me in my career, um, as well, because I think it's, um, shaped my way of thinking. Um,
[00:26:19] Marion Ellis: I think just on that, I think it's, you're not just problem solvers, you're positive problem solvers. It's finding solutions to things rather than coming in with a, oh, can't do that, can't do that, that's a problem. You know, it's, it's coming in with constructive solutions because you know how to get from one station to another and what's involved and, and what would be, you know, what would be better.
[00:26:42] Marion Ellis: But I think it comes back to that whole wider diversity piece of, um, You know, the, the more diverse a group of people you have around the table, the better decisions that are made. Because you've got so many different perspectives, or, you know, you know somebody who knows somebody and [00:27:00] can find, can find out, you've got that wider, wider pool, and, and that's where you get, get to that point of, okay, well, if you then got the focus and direction, okay, well, what are we here to do?
[00:27:10] Marion Ellis: We're here to get someone from A to B, you know, let's make that happen. What can we do to, to positively to do that? Um, you know, but also you then, you know, and as you were talking, I was thinking about, you know, Um, something I read many years ago about, I think architects had designed some glass, a glass staircase, you know, and you could sort of see up, which was all very interesting, but no woman would ever wear a skirt going up and down, you know, so there's just sort of just all of
[00:27:39] George Hooton: visually impaired, you know, how are you going to see that?
[00:27:42] Marion Ellis: Yeah. And, you know, we've talked about sort of. The new design of things and, and in principle you have a blank sheet of paper if you get the right people around the table, then you've got the best hope of creating something that is, you know, universal to all the difficulty that [00:28:00] comes, though, particularly, you know, here in the UK, everything is old, you know, you mentioned sort of retrofit, and we've got to adapt so much.
[00:28:09] Marion Ellis: I mean, we're not very good at adapting it. Anyway, because we're very, our heritage is very close to our hearts in most of the UK, but that's a whole other different area, isn't it?
[00:28:21] George Hooton: It is. Um, you know, I think that there are fantastic examples of grade one listed buildings that actually on the whole are very accessible. The Houses of Parliament, when I worked there briefly, was actually very surprisingly accessible. It's one of the oldest buildings and probably the most protected building.
[00:28:42] George Hooton: But that was probably firstly to accommodate the elderly peers, you know, who didn't want to climb for four staircases. They started putting in these lifts. So there are great examples of how you can do it while keeping the heritage of the building intact. [00:29:00] Um, but, you know, I'm all for, you know, um, this, the buildings, you know, I think we have to do it, but if it doesn't serve our purpose entirely.
[00:29:14] George Hooton: Then there is a little bit of a problem there. You know, I think we we can and technology is changing. You know, there are ways of doing it. You know, you don't just have to put really ugly ramp to the side of it. Um, you know, I think that there are creative ways of doing it. We're keeping the building intact.
[00:29:36] George Hooton: The difficulty we have is in my view that the legislation at the moment is too broad Um, and not very clear as to responsibilities. So, um, you know, I, I went to my MP and I sort of said, look, I'm very interested in this space. Can you please tell me, you know, the key pieces of [00:30:00] legislation, you know, regarding accessibility, whose responsibility is and things like that.
[00:30:06] George Hooton: And, um, you know, you had to go around all the ministers and get, you know, half a dozen responses, which came back somewhat vague, um, you know, and we have what is, you know, referred to as a reasonable adjustments, you know, a business or a property owner and tenant, what have you, you know, has to make reasonable adjustments, but, um, you know, what, what is reasonable and to whom, um, you know, my definition of reasonable is probably going to be A bit different to yourself.
[00:30:37] George Hooton: And then again, it's you know, it seems to be up to the local authorities to actually enforce these things. Um, and they're obviously quite swamped. Um, you know, at the moment. So, you know, as I say, I'm not an expert. I'm still very much trying to learn and understand this space. But we face some some very, very significant challenges.
[00:30:59] George Hooton: And [00:31:00] I think it's best captured in, you know, commercial, um, agents, commercial spare, uh, And so we do a lot of work on, on High Streets, on Bristol's High Streets, um, as
[00:31:14] Marion Ellis: Well, I was just about, I was just about to ask you about, about your work, because, well, you, you say, you know, you're still new. New to this and, and finding your way, way through it, but there's power in that, you know, in this sort of curiosity of, well, why do we do things this way, you know, as you're talking, I'm just thinking, do we, do we really need legislation now?
[00:31:38] Marion Ellis: Yes, we do need legislation. I get that. But as property professionals who understand this or should understand this, we're in a position of power. Um. You know, to, to, to be in a position where we can make a difference on some of these things and we don't need permission from, from anybody to, you know, to, to operate in, in different ways.
[00:31:59] Marion Ellis: [00:32:00] Um, you know, for, for the greater good, but, you know, as surveyors, we've got a royal charter to act in the public advantage. You know, there's a lot we could do with, do with that if we, if we really thought, really thought harder about it. Um, but I was going to ask you about your, sorry, go on.
[00:32:15] George Hooton: no, no, no, I was just going to say, you know, I think that the first thing, the first stage that we have to do, and you've already sort of done it, which is, you know, when, when you had your child and you sort of had to push the round in the, a push chair and what have you and you start actually probably for the first time really seeing oh gosh how many stairs are down to get to this underground, you know, where's, I have to go all the way around there to get to the ramp and things like that and sort of that opened your horizon a little bit for from my friends.
[00:32:48] George Hooton: Um, It's also been quite eye opening for them. You know, we walk, I make quite a point of it now, obviously, um, you know, to try and raise awareness, you know, we sort of go down that sort of high street and [00:33:00] I go, I can't get in that one. I can't get in that one. I can't get in that one. I can't get in that one.
[00:33:05] George Hooton: Well, they come to me and they go, um, since I saw you last, I've been looking at all these things and I did not know how bad it was. So I think the first stage is very much making it a little bit more front of mind. , right. Getting, getting people to actually have a look Now, you know, a a a good way of sort of doing it is if you had a, a horrendous accident, worst case scenario, you have a horrendous accident.
[00:33:34] George Hooton: And, um, let's say you, you may have to use, uh, you know, a, a walking aid or let's say a wheelchair for, for ease. Um, you know. Could you access your home? Could you access your office? Could you access, um, you know, your favourite shop? Could you access your cinema? You know, how much of your life, um, or the things that you enjoy, how much more difficult would it be, um, if [00:34:00] at all possible?
[00:34:00] George Hooton: And for a great deal of people, um, you know, it would dramatically shift their way of life. Um, and I, I personally don't think, um, but I think that's a good way of doing it.
[00:34:14] Marion Ellis: As you were, as you were talking there about And in my head, I imagine you're doing a pub crawl down Bristol High Street. I can't get in there. I can't get in there.
[00:34:23] George Hooton: I've actually got one this afternoon as well. So that's quite good.
[00:34:26] Marion Ellis: for Christmas. But as you were thinking, there's so much that, that we could do as, as allies. And, you know, so there's the, you know, the planning, the routes of where you're going to go and thinking about how you would access it.
[00:34:40] Marion Ellis: And again, that's a. A thing that we, the, a kind thing that we can do, but I wonder how much do people come to you and say, you know, we're going to meet up for a beer, where do you want to go and how much of your scene is, do you have the solutions to this? Do you know the best places to go where you can get your wheels in?
[00:34:58] George Hooton: Yeah, yeah, [00:35:00] it very much the responsibility is on you. Um, right. So, you know, I think one challenge that we also face is that access isn't always clear and obvious. So if someone said, Oh, do you want to go for dinner at this restaurant? It's my responsibility to call up the restaurant, you know, ask it various questions.
[00:35:22] George Hooton: Do you have access? How do you get to the toilets? How, you know, all these sorts of things. Um, it's your responsibility to, to do those checks. And it's, it is quite a responsibility. You often have to sort of go on Google street view, try and look at the front, you know, what have you, you know, it very much is your, your sort of responsibility, which is tiresome, I think.
[00:35:46] George Hooton: Um, so yes, it is, but you know, sometimes, you know, Um, even, even other surveyors, other practices, you might say, you know, let's go for coffee. Let's grab a drink, something like that. Um, [00:36:00] how about here? And I go, well, I can't get in there. How about here? Yep. Also, can't get in there. Um,
[00:36:08] Marion Ellis: Now, this actually, this, this actually happened when I introduced you to somebody in Bristol. That I knew, and it was like, yeah, do you want to come up to a, I don't know if it was a Matrix event or a local event, I can't remember what it was, and you're like, yeah, that'd be great, but I can't get in there.
[00:36:23] Marion Ellis: Oh, okay. You know, and yeah, just, just, just, yeah, just, um, and then it all gets a bit awkward until we just say, right, okay, you know, what can we do about it? How do you address that awkwardness? Or do people not get awkward?
[00:36:39] George Hooton: Sorry, you broke up a little bit there. Um, yeah, no,
[00:36:43] Marion Ellis: yeah, how do you address the awkwardness of,
[00:36:46] George Hooton: I don't think it's awkward. I, you know, personally, I don't think it's maybe at the start, you know, maybe it was a little bit I'm pretty confident in myself now, and I quite like making the point, [00:37:00] you know, I think it's a point that needs to be made. Um, you know, it's not their fault. It's not my fault. It's just circumstance.
[00:37:07] George Hooton: And so, actually, now I think the good thing that's come out of it is now that is front of mind for him when, you know, another event is organized, you know, and he sort of says, Oh, I'd like George to come along to this, but hang on, before I ask him, let me check, right? So, I think those sorts of things are very positive.
[00:37:29] George Hooton: On the whole. Because, you know, it makes people more aware, um, you know, how I sort of adapt to that is, in my mind, I've sort of got a map of Bristol and I know, you know, all the places or, you know, all the roads that are accessible and are good. So if they said, I'm in this area, do you want to meet for whatever, you know, I know two or three places that are fine.
[00:37:52] George Hooton: And so. I think, again, you adapt.
[00:37:55] Marion Ellis: But that makes it a very small world, doesn't it, you know, for, for a lot [00:38:00] of people of, well, I know my town and this is, these are the roads and I can and can't, and this is, but comes back to this sort of universal, you know, of how do you get to London? How do you cross trains?
[00:38:11] George Hooton: well, I think, you know, the map is, you know, um, started out as a sort of survival mechanism, I suppose, um, you know, reduce uncertainty, reduce anxiety, but then you know, as you incur more issues, you just learn to sort of think on your feet and deal with that. I do a lot of travelling. Traveling as, um, you know, someone in a wheelchair is very challenging, right?
[00:38:35] George Hooton: Getting on a plane is hard enough, um, but, you know, sort of, I went into railing only a few, sort of, weeks or months ago. Um, going so quick. Um, but I know I'm going to incur issues and that's fine because I'm confident enough that when an issue arises that I've got these sort of tools. Um, to be able to deal with whatever comes up.
[00:38:58] George Hooton: So now I [00:39:00] have very little stress or anxiety. I recognize things are going to go wrong, but I'm confident in myself that I'll be able to solve that issue as it comes up. Um, so, so yes, it can be limiting initially, but, you know, over time, um, you know, actually, um, it really pulled into the risings.
[00:39:19] Marion Ellis: Can I ask you about, um, have you ever been to the RICS building in London?
[00:39:24] George Hooton: I haven't, I went past it on, uh, on Tuesday though. And yeah, I did see the steps,
[00:39:30] Marion Ellis: Yeah, so, um, cause I'm going to an event there, uh, later on this week. And, You've now making made me, you know, there's always a wisely event in London. Question when there's the rest of the, the country. But, you know, you're also making me think, okay, well there's steps as you go in. Um, you know, they've got their, you know, uh, lecture room and theater and library on the first floor, but they've got this really tiny little lift around the corner, down, down the back.
[00:39:57] Marion Ellis: Um, yes, they've got a great roof terrace. Um, [00:40:00] but even when you get the, the lift to the top. There's still a bit of navigating and, and stairs, uh, steps and that's it to get there. Um, so yeah, it just made me think actually if our own headquarters isn't accessible,
[00:40:16] George Hooton: Yeah, it's not not not a good image.
[00:40:19] Marion Ellis: no.
[00:40:20] George Hooton: Um, Yeah,
[00:40:23] Marion Ellis: the, the membership to think about. I'm sure. let me ask you, I wanted to ask about your work. So you, you've talked, um, you know a lot about your, your experience and thank you for, for sharing that and indulging me with my , my random questioning. Um, how have it, how has it shown up?
[00:40:41] Marion Ellis: Uh, in your work, because if you're dealing with, you know, commercial sites, you know, are you able to go out to sites, you know, do your clients, how does, how do you navigate that? How, what were you noticed about it?
[00:40:52] George Hooton: absolutely. So I think your your due diligence comes in, you know, prior, I think you very much have [00:41:00] to, you know, if you are doing an inspection, or you're meeting a client on site, you know, you do have to do those health and safety checks a little bit more, I suppose, you know, you really have to understand the building quite well, or the site before you go, Um, so, you know, I've not had too many issues, um, to be honest.
[00:41:22] George Hooton: Um, but I do very much rely on my colleagues to do the majority of viewings and inspections. There's no need for me to do all of them. Uh, you know, I do do make a point of going to all the buildings that I'm dealing with. Um, but, um, yeah, I mean, technology is, it's fantastic now. Google Street View and satellites.
[00:41:47] George Hooton: You know, we do lots of virtual tours and things like that. So tech has been really, really helpful in helping me get a better understanding of the [00:42:00] space, um, without necessarily having to go up flights of stairs or by myself. It's challenging situations. Um, so again, it's just something that you adapt to.
[00:42:13] George Hooton: Hmm.
[00:42:13] Marion Ellis: And, and, you know, it is about that, as you said about that teamwork, being part of a team that, that supports you and you can support them and find in a way that, that works so that you can, you can be a surveyor.
[00:42:25] George Hooton: Yeah, most definitely. And, you know, they are, you know, for example, they're, you know, very, very good, uh, helping me deal with that. But then I help them in, in other remits, you know, so I'm probably, well, I am the youngest in my firm. And so things like, you know, tech and software and all that sort of stuff always lands on my desk.
[00:42:50] George Hooton: So, you know, it's sort of swings around and roundabouts.
[00:42:55] Marion Ellis: So you've got this, this platform. or you're sort of stepping into [00:43:00] talking more about, uh, about diversity and accessibility and, and, and all of those things. Um, are you doing any, um, work with particular businesses or charities? Um,
[00:43:13] George Hooton: Yeah, I think it's a space I'm very much looking at and working with in more detail. Um, so, you know, I think I always have to sort of caveat some of these conversations. Yes, I am an individual with a disability and that is very rare in my space, but I am also, you know, a competent surveyor, um, you know, and so you sometimes run the risk of being put on a pedestal or I don't know what they refer to it as.
[00:43:48] George Hooton: Um, but they, they, you
[00:43:49] Marion Ellis: well, it's, well, it's almost like it comes back to that role model, that pressure that, you know,
[00:43:53] George Hooton: Yeah. No, I don't think that that's it. You know, I think that to the almost two distinct things [00:44:00] that I, that I try and emphasize. So yes, I do very much have my commercial surveyor, commercial agent role. And then sort of outside of my, um, outside of my work is when I really participate in the events and the panels and really pushing that very important.
[00:44:18] George Hooton: Agenda. I think the two as you rightfully say, as I'm starting to get a little bit more of a platform in this space, I think they will start to merge a little bit more. So I very much am keen of working with businesses that also recognize this is a challenge that see that their culture is evolving. And to do that, then they need a little bit more expertise.
[00:44:45] George Hooton: You know, there are very many amazing spares in our field. I think we're very lucky with the level of talent that we have in our industry. But there's nothing that can really compensate the personal [00:45:00] experience. And so, yes, I'm very much, um, looking to work with those sorts of businesses as well as charities in these spaces as well, because I think, you know, Um, the, the business or the organization, the charity, I think their physical assets and their property should be reflective of their general mission and values and things like that.
[00:45:23] George Hooton: And the two don't necessarily always correlate. So I'm very keen to sort of work in that space a little
[00:45:30] Marion Ellis: which is why I actually, you know, I was thinking about the RICS building. Here we are as, you know, a profession that
[00:45:36] George Hooton: Yeah. That's a great
[00:45:36] Marion Ellis: a difference. And. You know, for whatever reason, it's probably one of the most inaccessible buildings. And that, you know, it's, I don't know, is it listed? Maybe someone could tell us.
[00:45:48] Marion Ellis: I imagine, yeah, yeah. You know, and so there's restrictions of what you can, can and can't do. So, in itself, it's a, it's a great. Challenge to think about, well, how can you [00:46:00] make this work for people? And it comes back to that positive, positive problem solving. As you're, as you're talking, um, George, you seem very positive, very, um, constructive, you know, in the, in the way you've approached this.
[00:46:18] Marion Ellis: Um. Not to say that it sounds easy being in a wheelchair, but you, you sound like you've, you've got it sorted. I imagine it's not been that great or that easy, you know, all the time. What have you found most challenging or challenging? What would you like us to most help with?
[00:46:38] George Hooton: in, in the profession,
[00:46:39] Marion Ellis: Hmm. Yeah.
[00:46:40] George Hooton: in the profession. Um, yes. I mean, there definitely have been. Quite a few occasions over the years when I've just sort of gone, Oh, my God, am I really in the right industry, you know, it is not a natural fit. If anything, some of some of the things is it's a contradiction. You know, the [00:47:00] issues are so large, the challenges that you have to face.
[00:47:05] George Hooton: Um, it's you, you sort of go, you become, I think, a little overwhelmed at times. And I very much have almost gone. Yeah. Wouldn't it be so much easier working in a different industry rather than to constantly trying to push water up a hill? I think
[00:47:22] Marion Ellis: Hmm.
[00:47:23] George Hooton: Um, so yes, I very much have questioned it.
[00:47:27] George Hooton: Um, but saying that we as a profession have so much influence over the built environment, right? We have so much sort of control and power into the sort of physical barriers at play for millions of people in this country. You know, if we talk about one in five or 20 percent of people have a disability, um, you know, then someone has to do something.
[00:47:57] George Hooton: I feel a sense of personal [00:48:00] responsibility rather than a, you know, a sort of personal drive or think I'm going to benefit from it greatly. I know that something has to change. Something has to shift because the challenges that I face, I don't think are particularly, you know, fair or reasonable. Um, and I don't really see anyone, um, making great strides, uh, you know, in this area.
[00:48:25] George Hooton: So, um, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's a significant challenge. I don't think, you know, I think I'll, I'll make a tiny little impact. But if that You know, amounts to anything, then it will be worth while my, my sort of caveat is has always been. I recognize I'm a very lucky, privileged individual. Um, you know, I, I've sort of had a good education, good family, you know, and I've sort of got all the [00:49:00] things I generally need to have a, you know, a fairly warm Happy and healthy life.
[00:49:06] George Hooton: My wheelchair is a very fancy wheelchair. It's sort of, um, you know, a Romeo It's a Segway technology, which is really fast and nimble and fun. So, you know, that side of things is really enjoyable So, you know, I recognize that I'm very fortunate and very lucky and I probably would be fine if You know, as it is right.
[00:49:28] George Hooton: But I know that, as I say, millions of other people don't have, um, those sorts of privileges. Um, and so, yeah, I need to sort of lay a better pathway or an easier pathway. And if that means that I have to, you know, um, do public speaking or fortunate enough to go on a podcast like this, Um, then that's what you have to do, um, it's
[00:49:59] Marion Ellis: That, [00:50:00] that, that really resonates because that's how I feel about women and female surveyors. And it's, it's if you find yourself in a position where you can make a difference, you can have a voice for people who, who, who don't have one, then why wouldn't you? You know, and I, and I've always sort of come, come back to that sometimes when I speak out about all sorts of different things.
[00:50:22] Marion Ellis: Um, because somebody, somebody has to, and what's, and this is where allyship, isn't it? That really, really comes into, comes into its own. Um, and the small things that people can do is, you know, you know, listen to this podcast, share it with somebody, go on to the, um, you know, AbilityRE website, which I can put on the You know, uh, show notes, um, you know, just find out, get curious, understand a bit more.
[00:50:47] Marion Ellis: Who else do you know in your network who might have a disability of some kind? It is okay to ask and to, and to find out and then come back to that positive problem solving, you know, looking at, well, how can we help? [00:51:00] Can we help them all? Because it's just a good thing to do.
[00:51:05] George Hooton: Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, if we are talking about one in five or 20 percent of the population, chances are you do know someone. If it's not yourself, almost certainly you have someone in your family or in your close network. You know, the challenge again is, is there's still an awful lot of stigma.
[00:51:22] George Hooton: You know, people don't know what to say. They don't know what's appropriate. Um, and I suppose, uh, the disability community haven't always Um, helped with that because certain terminology is contentious, you know, even, you know, being labeled as disabled. Some people don't like that, right? I've got no issue with that.
[00:51:43] George Hooton: Um, so it, it does put people a little bit, you know, um, makes them sort of a little bit uncomfortable to ask those questions. And I always think, you know, what's your intention behind those questions?
[00:51:56] Marion Ellis: . George, it's been really, really good to talk to you and thank you so [00:52:00] much for being brave enough to go on the podcast, but, but to share your, your journey as well. And, um, we'll put some bits and pieces in the show notes, which people can have a look at, but thank you ever so much. So
[00:52:11] George Hooton: No, thank you for having me..
[00:52:12] Marion Ellis: Thanks for listening. I'd really love to know your thoughts and insights on this podcast. So do drop me a message
[00:52:18] Marion Ellis: if you're new to the Surveyor Hub, do check out some of our past recordings. And when you're ready, leave us a review on Google or Apple iTunes, or you can buy me a coffee. All the links are in the show notes.
[00:52:33] Marion Ellis: And if you want to find out more about how working with me can help you support your surveying business journey, please do drop me a message or take a look at the many free resources for surveyors and small businesses at lovesurveying. com.
