ļ»æAlice Graham
[00:00:00] Marion Ellis: Welcome to the SurveyorHUB podcast, the podcast for surveyors who just love what they do.
[00:00:07] Marion Ellis: I'm Marian Ellis. And in today's episode, I chat to Alice Graham, a Chartered Quantity Surveyor and Solutions Engineer at Procore Technologies. Where Alice combines industry expertise with a passion for technology to help construction organizations adopt cutting edge cost management solutions, contributing to the industry's digital transformation.
[00:00:35] Marion Ellis: Yes, we're talking about PropTech, with a bit of early careers and diversity thrown in.
[00:00:47] Marion Ellis: Hi Alice, how are you? So, so welcome to the podcast, Alice. Lovely to speak to you.
[00:00:53] Alice Graham: Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to our chat.
[00:00:56] Marion Ellis: Um, and I want to start off by saying what a beautiful [00:01:00] accent you've got. I've always, I've been meaning to say this to you for ages. Where, where about, what's your, let's go back into, you know, uh, where you're from, your journey, how did you get into surveying, and where does that accent come from?
[00:01:13] Alice Graham: Yes. So a lot of people say that whenever I get onto a call, but, um, I was born in Malawi in Southeast Africa, and then my family moved to Scotland when I was 10 years old and that it's a Scottish accent, Edinburgh specifically. Some people might, you know, say it's, it'S not strong enough, but yeah, it's, it's a Scottish accent.
[00:01:33] Marion Ellis: Uh, and, uh, you do find as you move around... the country that sometimes your accent change. So, uh, I came from, I'm from North Wales, which has its own unique accent. And, um, but give myself a glass of wine and you'll know exactly which town and street I'm from.
[00:01:53] Alice Graham: No, that's fair.
[00:01:55] Marion Ellis: And with my siblings, cause we've all moved around, we've all got different.
[00:01:58] Marion Ellis: Shades of, [00:02:00] uh, Welsh accents, which is quite funny too. So, uh, but yeah, so tell me a bit about how you got into surveying.
[00:02:06] Alice Graham: Yeah, so when I was in school, I was set on doing medicine. Um, so I ended up doing lots of sciencey topics. So in Scotland, you have standard grades and highers. So slightly different to the English system. But, um, I did my subjects and that was what I was hoping to do. Um, 2013, my results came out and it wasn't quite what I was hoping for by way of, um, getting the grades I needed for medicine so I needed to go back to the drawing board and figure out what I was going to do.
[00:02:38] Alice Graham: My mum has a built environment background so she knew a few people that were quantity surveyors so I started looking into that as an option because I thought that seems all right, because I was always quite into business and economics, so it just felt like it was quite similar to those interests. Um, so she put me in touch with some friends, uh, one of her friends that [00:03:00] did quantity surveying.
[00:03:01] Alice Graham: I spoke to him and I was like, yeah, this seems like what I want to do. Um, the way he sold it to me actually was, you know, If you become a chartered surveyor you can work anywhere in the world and I was at that time I was always like yep I want to fly the nest and go far away somewhere. So that sold it for me and then I went to, I applied for a university.
[00:03:24] Alice Graham: Well, I ended up at Heriot Watt University studying quantity surveying for four years. I had applied to other universities, um, but I wasn't, um, I did get offered a place at, um, I think it was Napier and John Moore University at the time. And I suppose this is also kind of part of my story in that. I was having to pay what I was being asked to pay international fees at the time.
[00:03:48] Alice Graham: So, uh, going to John Muir University in Liverpool wasn't going to be a feasible option for me, but I got offered to pay home fees at Heriot Watt. So that made it a bit more affordable. Yeah.
[00:03:59] Marion Ellis: How, [00:04:00] how, how does that work? International fees? Why was
[00:04:03] Alice Graham: So typically, so it depends on people's residency status. Um, so at the time. I wasn't, um, I wasn't a British citizen at the time, so I was on the like sort of dependent visa, so it meant that my family were considered when it came to university applications were international. So yeah, it was a financial decision, not just, you know, I want to go this place or wherever.
[00:04:27] Alice Graham: So I was actually reading. An email or something from a long time ago, just reflecting and thinking, well, what a journey it's been. But yeah, I ended up at Heriot Watt University. Yeah.
[00:04:39] Marion Ellis: do you know, that's a, that's a big thing for lots of us, you know, in terms of going away to university and costs and, you know, the landscape's changed so, so much. You know, I went to, um, it's now a university. It used to be an institute when I, when I first. I remember, I remember people talking to me about the old [00:05:00] polytechnics and I'm thinking I used to go to an institute which perhaps explains a lot, but I did it because it was, it was local to me.
[00:05:07] Marion Ellis: It was nearby, it meant I could stay at home for a bit, you know, and save on costs and those practical things are real, you know, real considerations at the, at the end of the day. So how did you, how did you then sort of start work?
[00:05:22] Alice Graham: Yeah, so I started, well, my first actual job was as a waitress at Nando's. I, I've always really proud of that because, um, I learned a lot. I, I mean, you could squeeze it into the client care part of being a surveyor. Um, but yeah, I think, um, that was a lot of good lessons. But my first actual job, um, being a surveyor was, um.
[00:05:41] Alice Graham: I did a few work experience stints, um, in surveying companies in Edinburgh, and then I was offered a part time job in my final year of university, um, by, um, a local company called Thompson Grey, and, um, they basically put me up one day a week, so I was studying four [00:06:00] days. At the company one day as a trainee quantity surveyor.
[00:06:04] Alice Graham: So that was really good experience because I got to learn from very well seasoned surveyors and then off the back of that I was, I was able just to get the experience that I needed for applying for jobs because typically a lot of when you're applying for graduate schemes, they're looking for people that have a bit, you know, they've done some internships or something like that.
[00:06:27] Alice Graham: So it was a really good, um, starting point for me. And then eventually, um, I, uh, I ended up getting a graduate role, uh, with Faithful in Gold, um, in, uh, and I moved. So I used to live in Edinburgh and then moved down South to England to take on that role. So it's a lot of change once again, but, um, yeah, it was, it was good.
[00:06:47] Alice Graham: Um, so I enjoyed. I enjoyed that. And, um, yeah, I, do you want me to sort of go into the details of what I did? Um,
[00:06:56] Marion Ellis: Well, let me, let me ask you a couple of questions or a couple of [00:07:00] observations. Um, I think any kind of work experience like a waitressing at Nando's. I used to work behind a bar in, uh, Wetherspoons and a Yates wine lodge, amongst other many things. And that really, to anyone sort of listening, you know, never underestimate the things that you learn in those jobs and the values, the value that that brings to the world of surveying.
[00:07:24] Marion Ellis: Because when I started my graduate job, I was not worried about picking up the phone and talking to people because I'd worked at British Gas and BT and all sorts, you know, so, um, there are lots of, and even now, actually, when I think about the customer experience types of work that I've done over the years with claims, you know, it, it all comes back to having that confidence to be able to talk to people.
[00:07:45] Marion Ellis: So never. Um, underestimate that. I don't know about how you cook chicken or whether you got that far of it. I didn't,
[00:07:53] Alice Graham: I think for, for me, it was a lesson about culture as well. Cause it was like really good about, you know, [00:08:00] supporting the people that are working for the company. So that's something I took away with me as to culture is a very important aspect of running a business and building a team and people getting on well together.
[00:08:12] Alice Graham: So for me, that was just quite an amazing student job, to be honest. And yes, there was some free food too, but yeah. Yeah.
[00:08:20] Marion Ellis: I, I learned how to do, um, when I worked in a Scruffy Murphy's, I learned how to do a shamrock in a, on the top of a pint of Guinness. That's my, my talent. And I'm sure if I could, I could do it again now, although the purists would say that should never happen to, uh, to a pint. Um, you talked about, uh, you know, what sold it to you was the world travel. Um, and you've gone from Edinburgh to, you know, England. Um, do you see yourself traveling around the world further or
[00:08:52] Alice Graham: I mean, in my current role, I'm actually in a role that looks over the sort of EMEA region. Um, so I'm working [00:09:00] with colleagues, uh, so EMEA being Europe, Middle East, Africa sort of region. So our business is a global business where I work. So without necessarily having to travel, I am actually working in a very international environment.
[00:09:13] Alice Graham: So I think I'm fulfilling that aspect already. Yeah. So it's been quite fun.
[00:09:18] Marion Ellis: Sounds like you're itching to, uh, uh, to get out there. And I guess, you know, over the past few years, as a, as an early career surveyor, that's been quite challenging with the whole lockdown, COVID, tell me a bit about how, how that was for you. Were you, how, how did you find that work experience?
[00:09:36] Alice Graham: Yeah. So when I was doing COVID during COVID, sorry. Um, I was working on a particular sort of capital investment program. I was fortunate in that we were already a national team that was planning to work, you know, across different offices. So it just meant we were working a lot, you know, like everyone else on zoom and teams, etc.
[00:09:58] Alice Graham: I think, yeah, it [00:10:00] was. Everyone had a different experience of it. For me, it was, um, trying to separate home life and work life to be sort of, you know, you have a room that you're spending a lot of time in because you can't go to the office. So for me, I think coming out of COVID, I was definitely very strong on, um, Trying to make that separation very clear because you know the commute isn't just you know a time to drive to work it's time to get ready for work, and it's also time to get ready to decompress and just sort of whatever's happened you leave it there.
[00:10:32] Alice Graham: So yeah, I think for me, my, my takeaway from it was just learning how to have those good boundaries between the two spaces and. Now I work from home in my new role, but, um, for the most part, and go to the office, um, every now and again, but I still have retained those kind of boundaries that I want to have for myself to maintain a good work life balance.
[00:10:55] Alice Graham: So, yeah, but I think because I was already working in a national team, [00:11:00] I probably didn't feel it as much as people who, uh, are used to with people that sit next to them in an office. And I've had In my other projects that I worked on after that particular stint in that one, I also had a similar role where I was working with colleagues from Edinburgh, London, etc.
[00:11:19] Alice Graham: So I'm quite used to that way of working.
[00:11:22] Marion Ellis: Let me ask you about your new role then, so, cause you're doing a bit more on the technology side, aren't you? Tell me more, a bit more about that.
[00:11:29] Alice Graham: Yeah, so, um, recently. Nearly three months ago now. So I joined a new organization. It's called Procore Technologies. So it's a slight pivot to what I was doing previously as a quantity surveyor. So Procore is a software platform that helps to bring different people together in the construction industry.
[00:11:52] Alice Graham: And essentially it's, if you think about it in simple terms, As quantity surveyors, I'll speak from that perspective. We're [00:12:00] using so many different applications, Excel, emails to try and conduct our day to day processes. And Procore's aim is to have that single place where you can go where your applications for payments are there, the drawings are there, you can do the tendering processes there, etc.
[00:12:16] Alice Graham: And our clients, our developers, or clients that commission projects, contractors, subcontractors, so they're trying to use Procore to make the process a lot more efficient than what is currently the case where you have a spreadsheet for just about every single thing you do. So, where my role comes in is I'm using my background as a quantity surveyor to help clients that want to manage their financial project finances better using technology.
[00:12:46] Alice Graham: So coming back to that point of automation of applications for payment, for example, rather than a back and forth email exchange or, um, things like estimating and automating your estimation process [00:13:00] and building up your budget so that you have standardization across different projects that your team is running.
[00:13:06] Alice Graham: So, yeah, it's really exciting because for me, I've always. I've always been interested in tech and um, there's a lot of space for the construction industry to really get better at using tech from my perspective.
[00:13:21] Marion Ellis: And do you think that's a generational thing, you being a, a youngster? That you, that you get to grips with, with tech a bit better? Or, I mean, what, what, what made you want to, to pivot in that way?
[00:13:34] Alice Graham: Um, I think for me, it's um, everyone comes into the role with the expectations of what they're going to get to do. And the narrative that you hear from a lot of people is like, you know, I just want to get on with a day job. And if you think of being a quantity surveyor, there's a lot of exciting bits, but for me, it's always, you want to be sitting with your client, giving them the advice that they need and doing that really sort of.
[00:13:57] Alice Graham: client facing aspect of it. But [00:14:00] what does get in the way is there's a lot of administrative things that you have to do. And if you can automate some of those bits, it's like you're maximizing the amount of time that you're going to get to do the stuff that is actually quantity surveying. That's from an individual contributor's perspective, but also from running a business perspective.
[00:14:21] Alice Graham: Uh, so if you're thinking maybe more like a director, you're thinking you want your people to be doing what you pay them to do rather than doing the administrative tasks. You, you, and you also want your business to grow. You want to be able to take on more work because you're running more efficiently.
[00:14:37] Alice Graham: Those are the sort of things that I think they relate to why I think we should be using technology. Um, so it's, it's not necessarily an age thing because a lot of people want to do meaningful work. Um, so if you want to do more meaningful work, tech is one way that you can make that happen more. I mean, what's your thoughts on that?
[00:14:59] Marion Ellis: Yeah, I [00:15:00] mean, it's a, it's a tool. That's, that's all, you know, and they talk about, you know, sort of garbage in, garbage out. It's the. It's, it's how you, you, you use it. But I mean, often I find, um, you know, on my side, when I see sort of residential surveyors, they don't understand their processes, why they do what they do. The fact that why they, why they've been doing it that way for 30 odd years. Um, you know, it's just, just the way. And so when they go to move then over to any kind of tech, um, it all starts to fall down because they don't understand. You know, the, the audit trial, the reasons why they, you know, um, as I said, they, they do what they do in the first place.
[00:15:38] Marion Ellis: Um, and you're right, it's not, it's not an age thing because you have people at different stages of their career doing, doing different things. But I do wonder, you know, as someone who sort of more recently than me been in university, did, did you find they sort of talked about technology and how that was used?
[00:15:57] Marion Ellis: In, in university and then you come [00:16:00] into, you know, the construction landscape and no one's using it or is it sort of not quite how you how you expect it because I get a sense of that sometimes on the, you know, on the, on the residential side.
[00:16:11] Alice Graham: Yeah, I think that would definitely be my personal experience. So I'll give you a story as an example. When I was at university, we had a course where we had several courses that were about technology, but one of them was about design. We built our own Revit models, like 3D models of a building. We, you, as in a quantity surveyors, project managers, like it was.
[00:16:35] Alice Graham: multiple disciplines. So, uh, we built those 3D models. We understood how they worked and the, the story was in future, we should be able to take off items from it. So, you know, quantify how many, I don't know, air handling units or the amount of. Wall, ceiling, whatever you've got, carpet, so that should be something that in the future we should be able to automate.
[00:16:58] Alice Graham: So then fast [00:17:00] forward to starting work, and you're sort of really excited this fresh face graduate, and you're saying, Oh, can I get a 3d model of like this building because I know that the architects have a 3d model so I can use it to do a takeoff and it will be you know automated and all this stuff that I've learned, and then you're getting Yeah.
[00:17:17] Alice Graham: given PDF drawings in 2D, two dimension, and you've got to do the takeoff by clicking and clicking, and it's not actually automated. And for me, that was just like, huh, like we've learned all this stuff at uni of where the future could be, but we're not there yet. And so, yeah, I worked in for six years. And so, yeah, even till now, I've never had the experience of being given a 3D model to then use for measuring and I know there's a whole bunch of work that needs to be done, but that's just a simple example of, you know, about six years ago when I was at university, we were learning about that, but we're not actually doing it in industry.
[00:17:57] Alice Graham: So I think there can be a bit of a frustration there [00:18:00] of, um, We know what's possible, but I think, um, we're perhaps holding on to, um, the way that we've always done things instead of moving ourselves into the future. Now don't get me wrong, one of the key things people always say is, you know, these young people need to know how to use a scale ruler.
[00:18:19] Alice Graham: We learned that as well. So I know that if push comes to shove, I can do a measurement using a drawing with a scale ruler and, you know, dim paper. I can do that, but that's just to understand the principle, because if you think the amount of time we will save by using, you know, the computer versions, but being able to verify our work in a different way, then that's where the future needs to be.
[00:18:42] Alice Graham: So. I think when you have grown up with tech, you know, when you've got apps for different things, songs and podcasts, et cetera, it doesn't really make sense to be going into work and, um, doing things as if you're still back in like the nineties. So that would be my personal take.[00:19:00]
[00:19:00] Marion Ellis: What, what do you think we need to do to bridge that gap. Because it because there's. There's nothing wrong with doing it with a ruler and there's nothing wrong with doing it with a, you know, on a 3D model, measuring things, you know, but how do we, how do we bridge that gap? Because if, if we don't have that, you know, turn of tide.
[00:19:20] Marion Ellis: And it isn't going to get any better and people like you and others, you know, are going to find different sectors to work in, you know, because you've got very valuable skills and a Um,
[00:19:32] Marion Ellis: what do you think we need to do to bridge that, that gap?
[00:19:36] Alice Graham: Um, I think at the moment the tide might turn because of the business case there is for using technology, because obviously some of those people are key decision makers that would, you know, make that purchasing decision to invest in software. So I think that might change the tide and also as leadership sort of Demographics change a little bit because obviously [00:20:00] people like myself, maybe in five, 10 years time might be the people that are, you know, the ones that are making those purchasing decisions of this is the strategy of our company.
[00:20:11] Alice Graham: And this is the software we want to use to enable those strategic moves. Um, cause I think you can, I I've seen that construction companies, for example, more and more are starting to have sort of. technology, business technology officers kind of as a specialist role to look at how is that consultancy or main contractor organization going to leverage technology.
[00:20:34] Alice Graham: So there is the business aspect of it, but I think also enabling young people to have their voice heard, uh, the young people that are into tech, um, that, you know, they can bring these ideas and they can, those ideas are embraced because yet you could either go into a company and they'll tell you. Oh, that 3D, you know, that 3D model stuff is a load of rubbish or they could be like, Oh, like, tell us a bit more.
[00:20:58] Alice Graham: And we're going to give you like a bit of a [00:21:00] project and assignment to look into it and bring it back to the business and tell us how we can leverage it. Um, yeah, so I think those are some of the ways, but I suppose we always have to be mindful about the business side of it and the economic sense that it would make to convince the, the people who, who hold the purse strings.
[00:21:20] Marion Ellis: Yeah, you're right. Ultimately, it all comes down to, to money. But if the business case is there, then there is, there is a way. Um, it was interesting there. You're right. It's diversity of having. The right people, you know, around the table and that cognitive diversity of, you know, younger people with experience of tech.
[00:21:42] Marion Ellis: No more mature experienced surveyors with use of doing things the old ways to come around together and to work out what's the best thing for the company or what's the best thing to do now. It reminds me actually many years ago I was involved in rolling out the very first tablet technology for residential [00:22:00] surveyors. And I was involved because I could work a colored computer screen, Alice, which was very, very old. Yeah. Um, and we had these tablets, which were, you know, weighed a ton, um, and I would go out with surveyors and show them how to use them and sort of do like a mini, mini audit. And it made me feel great as a surveyor because I realized how much I, I knew, but I noticed that there was a fear of technology and if you think people have never used.
[00:22:28] Marion Ellis: Um, you know, this kind of stuff in their work environment and the risks that go along with it because you're concentrating on the tool and not necessarily the job at hand, which puts you at risk of claims and mistakes and things going wrong. Um, so it. You know, for me, it sort of highlighted the fear that we each of us have of learning something new at different stages.
[00:22:49] Marion Ellis: Um, but also I think, um, you know, the, that we need to have a bit of respect for each other, you know, so yes, respect for those who've been doing it for years, but also [00:23:00] respect for people with this newer technology or the new thinking, you know, as they've, they've come out of uni with all of these, you know, different experiences.
[00:23:09] Marion Ellis: Um, I'm finding a way that. To recognize that we are all consistent yet that we are all different, you know, and that, that if we recognize that people are consistently different, I would use technology differently. And we design it in that way that we're not giving like a blanket, this is how it's done, you know, and we exclude certain people or the older guys leave or, you know, it's just, it's a way of a.
[00:23:36] Marion Ellis: Finding a way of approaching it, knowing that everybody is different so that they can do their jobs to the best of their, their ability, which is a whole, just recognizing that we're people, not computers, you know, at
[00:23:47] Alice Graham: Yeah, and, and, yeah, and I think you touch on an important point because there's all sorts of tools out there, but there's also the aspect you mentioned about managing change. So everyone can be on the [00:24:00] same boat, irrespective of their experience with technology to have that fear. So. Leaders of organizations are the ones that will be tasked with managing the change well so that people feel, you know, enabled to adopt whatever that solution is going to be.
[00:24:17] Alice Graham: Because if you don't have that step, then people will be skeptical and people will be scared. And that respect will come, the respect you were talking about of everyone has different skill sets and experience with technology, but if they feel heard. You know, that you've not just, you know, come and said, everyone's going to use this software.
[00:24:38] Alice Graham: I think that's where sometimes the problems can come in, but people would embrace technology, but they've just not been given the time to be able to think and be taught, walked through the change. So, yeah.
[00:24:51] Marion Ellis: Yeah. And the thing with technology, you know, so much of it is. You know, it's intuitive and it's easy to use to get you started, you know, I mean, [00:25:00] most people have never had any training on Microsoft Word or Excel, but you can do enough to get by, or you can go on to Google or YouTube and find out how to do some of it.
[00:25:09] Marion Ellis: So you can get part the way there, you know, but it's just those, anyone who's, you know, tried to format a Word document or try to come up with a particular formula. It can drive you absolutely, you know, nuts, but if you, um, you know, but you can find out that, that, that information, but, um, but yeah, can I ask you just carry on from that on that sort of diversity front, because I know you've done, and I think I've seen some.
[00:25:34] Marion Ellis: brilliant things that you've done on, um, initiatives you've done on LinkedIn in terms of diversity with, um, black women in quantity surveying. Um, I listened to, uh, some podcasts that you shared recently with reverse mentoring. Um, so tell me a bit about the different types of things you've been doing there.
[00:25:53] Marion Ellis: Cause I think it's great.
[00:25:55] Alice Graham: Yeah, so there's a few different things that I've been involved in but the key one is, [00:26:00] um, a few, about two years ago I started a WhatsApp chat for black women in quantity surveying so the purpose of that was just to bring people together and, um, help them to exchange knowledge and tips and just encouragement about being in industry.
[00:26:16] Alice Graham: Um, it was just off the back of that whole idea of not really always being able to see the role models of people that might have a relatable background. So yeah, that's one of the initiatives that I've had. And as part of that, um, We created a booklet that was showcasing 21 different women who are quantity surveyors at different levels.
[00:26:39] Alice Graham: It's just so you can give that visibility of those profiles so that if somebody was thinking about quantity surveying, they would kind of have that booklet as a point of reference because from my perspective anyway, I thought quantity surveying was such a hidden gem of a career path to follow because like I said before, you know, if you become [00:27:00] chartered, um, you, you would be able to go and work in other parts of the world and it's a very, you know, rewarding career with a lot of variety and, um, you get to work on different sorts of things.
[00:27:10] Alice Graham: So it was just really to bring that awareness, both of the career option and also of other people that have gone ahead of you because there's not many people who are sort of by the time you get to senior quantity surveyor associate director etc there's not very many people that might look like you in those positions and that's not to say you're not going to speak to other people because i've had mentors that don't look like me and i've had lots of encouragement from them but it's just to have that thing of if somebody has a story, for example, if you're someone who's got immigrant parents, not everyone can relate to that narrative.
[00:27:48] Alice Graham: So you might want to find somebody who can relate to that particular aspect of your career and professional development. Um, and then some other initiatives, like you've mentioned, um, I [00:28:00] participated in, um, a reverse mentoring, uh, uh, podcast, um, with, uh, ladies in real estate. Um, so that was really great. And, um, a few others also participated.
[00:28:12] Alice Graham: Um, so yeah, just generally I like to keep busy in that space. Um, for me, the thing I always have on, on my heart is, um, Encouraging other people to be the best that they can be, um, to sort of cheerleader to be a cheerleader to other people because you don't always get that. So yeah, that's what kind of motivates me with that.
[00:28:34] Alice Graham: Um, and hopefully those initiatives have helped other people to find their feet a bit.
[00:28:41] Marion Ellis: I thought the initiatives were, were great. Um, and I love the fact that you just went and did it off your own back, you know, and just go out there and do this stuff. And because we don't have to wait for anybody to tell us. You know, to give us permission to do these [00:29:00] things. And when I did, um, you know, this sort of virtual, the Women in a Surveying Virtual Summit six years ago, I think it was now, um, you know, I just went and did it, you know, and there was a lot of pushback of, you know, who does she think she is?
[00:29:13] Marion Ellis: And is it right to talk about women and all of that malarkey? And we still have some of that now. Um, but if you don't show that you're deserving of it. You know, I'm visible then what, what does that message does that send to somebody else? What was, what motivated you to do it though? Was it something that you just always been aware of and you've always been like that, you know, sort of through your career at university or was there a trigger that motivated you to do it?
[00:29:43] Alice Graham: Um, for me, I've always been someone who always thinks of life in the sense of community. Um, so what triggered me was, you know, people would usually say those phrases like it's lonely at the top or, you know, you, you want to go together with other people and not be on your own. [00:30:00] And so. For me, I thought, well, if you're gonna you're already sort of a woman in construction, you're a black woman in construction, you're already got quite a small pool of people that can relate to that and so it's building that community of people you can you can be able to.
[00:30:17] Alice Graham: speak to and have a community that you build around yourself as a support system. So, and also be able to offer that to other people, because now I'm where I am in industry, I'm a bit further on and for people that are coming into industry, they can get that support. And specifically why I did it as a self led initiative, if you want to call it that, rather than having corporate affiliations was, I think, um, It can be challenging sometimes if you if you need to do something as a corporate initiative that obviously there's pros and cons of you get corporate backing, you would have maybe access to certain resources, but from my perspective, having the freedom to shape.
[00:30:59] Alice Graham: The [00:31:00] initiative the way you want it to go and, um, not have those sort of ties that would, um, dictate how you're going to run an initiative is what appealed to me to do it the way that we've done. And it's not to say that it would be like that forever, but I think for me, um, it does appeal to sort of have it that It's not necessarily got that affiliation, but always for people who have, you know, supported us and said, you know, can we reshare and whatever there's, there's no issue with that.
[00:31:30] Alice Graham: But I think, from my perspective, where I was at when I started it, it, it really helps to keep it sort of very neutral, if I can put it that way.
[00:31:43] Marion Ellis: And I think, and I think it goes to show just what can be done these days without a huge budget. Yeah. Um, you know, with a bit of, um, bit of initiative and, you know, the, the whole sort of women in surveying stuff that I do, you know, [00:32:00] like you, it's, you know, it's, it's independent, it's not sponsored. Um, you know, there are different ways that people can support.
[00:32:08] Marion Ellis: Uh, and it's, it just, it's just grown because of enthusiasm, you know, and people just sort of want to want to want to get on board, you know, and, but it just goes to show just the, the power of. Thank you. Uh, of just having the right, the right message and targeting it at the right people and the difference, the difference that that can make.
[00:32:28] Alice Graham: And can I add something to it? Like, it depends on who's listening to this. I think when these sort of initiatives happen the way they do, it's actually a challenge to corporations that if we can do this without very much budget, then you should be able to do far, far more than we can because you've got access to them.
[00:32:49] Alice Graham: marketing consultants, you've got PR companies, whatever you do have. So I think it's a challenge to those organizations to say, you know, look at [00:33:00] Marion doing this just off her own back. So you could have a team of 10 people doing this all year round. So it's just a challenge to put out there that, yeah.
[00:33:11] Marion Ellis: Uh, so I, I totally agree. I totally agree. And it just goes to show if you, if you, if something is a matters to you and if it's a priority, then there are ways that you can make it happen. And therefore there is no excuse whatsoever. For any corporate or professional organization or membership body, anything out there that they cannot make a difference.
[00:33:33] Marion Ellis: They just need to pull their finger out and get on and do it. One of the things that I found is that the more you become visible and become sort of a bit of a role model is there's an expectation, you know, and people will, people and businesses will come to me. To ask for advice or comment or input, um, and they don't want to pay for my time, know, I, you know, uh, there, there's an expectation that, you know, I'll [00:34:00] refer it to Marion and she'll know what to do about all the women, you know, like, like I'm the only woman out there, for example.
[00:34:06] Marion Ellis: Um, but, and, and also there's a pressure of, you know, what's next and how do you keep things going and how do you keep that, that momentum building? Um, how have you found that the more that your visibility has, uh, has increased?
[00:34:21] Alice Graham: Um, I think for anyone who finds themselves in that place, they have to be able to have um, solid boundaries as to how they're going to conduct themselves and what they say yes to and what they say no to. And my principle is always, you want to say a big fat yes to the things that really matter to you and align with your vision and values.
[00:34:41] Alice Graham: And you can say. know to things that don't align with that vision or your values or you can even one one tactic of use is trying to have evergreen material I call it. I learned this term off of a former colleague and it was just this idea that you can actually have something that you [00:35:00] can give to somebody if they ask you a question as opposed to you having to create a personalized.
[00:35:06] Alice Graham: answer for that person. So coming back to the booklet for black women in QS again, then that is an evergreen piece of material that if somebody asks you, well, tell me more about what you do in your job or whatever, you can just say, here's a link to the booklet, go have a read. And you know, you probably find the answers for what you're looking for in there.
[00:35:25] Alice Graham: Um, so that's one way that I, I look to manage that aspect of it because you, you can't answer everyone, you know, people will ask you things on LinkedIn and whatever, and you won't be able to always speak to everyone, but that's one way. And I think the other aspect as well is understanding sort of why people might want to pick your brain on something.
[00:35:46] Alice Graham: Uh, and you're right when you said, you know, if you think about it in a business sense. picking somebody's brain as consulting, right? And that's maybe I've got my QS hat on, but you send an invoice for that. So, um, it's also [00:36:00] understanding, um, you know, if somebody's coming from a genuine place and it's, it's something that can have a mutual exchange, or if, you know, it's very one way.
[00:36:08] Alice Graham: And I think that's some of the ways that I look at it, but it is something to be mindful of, especially for. people that find themselves in those minority groups that are representing, um, a wider group of people, or at least they feel like they're representing, then it can feel quite heavy sometimes. Um, but with the right boundaries, there's nothing wrong with saying no.
[00:36:31] Alice Graham: And, um, I've said no to things like, you know, even in Black History Month, I've said no, that doesn't align with my values to some things and I didn't do it. And I don't feel bad for it because saying no to that allowed me to say yes to something that I really wanted to do, so. I think we need to just say no more, but we say yes to the right things and give it the best effort.
[00:36:53] Alice Graham: So for me, if I say yes to something, I'm going to give it, you know, the excellence it deserves. So it's not [00:37:00] about just dishing out no's and being inaccessible. It's about saying an emphatic yes and being committed to that yes and following through and doing a great job of it. So that's how I try to do things.
[00:37:13] Marion Ellis: I think that's really, um, good advice. There you go. I do. It's, you know, and the more that we, but you've got to start with understanding what your values are. You know, and what's important, what point to you and, you know, doing, and I see this with lots of surveyors, you know, that I work with is, is doing the personal development and understanding why you do what you do, what's important to you.
[00:37:39] Marion Ellis: Um, you know, what's going to motivate you to go and make the change or to do whatever it is, you know, your values coupled them with boundaries, and it's hard, you know, there's so many things that I would love to go and just sort out. And I know I could, and I know I could, but, you know, um, There are [00:38:00] times when I think, well, actually, no, I should be paid to do this.
[00:38:02] Marion Ellis: You know, I was recently, um, contacted to ask if I would do a volunteer role for a, um, Oh, to apply for a volunteer role for a, uh, a membership. Um, and it's 30 days, at least. And there's like no pay and I work for, you know, I work for myself, you know, a small business and I, you know, work part time and juggle the kids and all of those things.
[00:38:27] Marion Ellis: Um, and the thing is, so there's no way practically that I could do that. And I know I could do a good job at it. But then, but what you then do is, you know, if you don't look at those vacancies and start to change things, that's when you, you're just missing out on opportunities for good people to be able to contribute, um, in, you know, in, in different ways, but also there are lots of people.
[00:38:51] Marion Ellis: I mean, I was chatting to people, um, I was chatting to some people about the same role and all four of them had been approached. So I didn't feel so special after that. [00:39:00] But none of us, none of us could do it purely because of the, the, the commitment and the not being paid,
[00:39:06] Alice Graham: yeah, you raise, yeah, you raise another good point actually so I think everyone who find themselves, finds themselves in the place that you are should have a list of people I would recommend that, you know, somebody offers you something you say, I can't do this, but There's this person, and it can be anything, right?
[00:39:25] Alice Graham: I'm sure it could be dinners that you might get invited to, it could be all sorts of things, and instead of saying that no, it could be making an opportunity for someone else, and I've tried to do that where I can, and, and, you know, you can ask the question, right?
[00:39:40] Marion Ellis: and exactly. And that's exactly, uh, what, what I do is, you know, have you thought about somebody else, but what, but what then happens is people get lazy and they still come to you to say, have you got somebody? And it's like, can you, can you not create your, your own list? And that's where things like, you know, so within women in surveying, [00:40:00] we've got this directory, which is just a list of women, surveyors, but it just goes to show that you can create a list, you know, it just, it just, just need to go out there and, and, uh, and do this stuff.
[00:40:13] Marion Ellis: And what I find sort of quite, quite refreshing with the initiatives and the kind of work that you've been doing is what motivated me. Was actually just being really annoyed at some situations. Um, but whereas what's motivating you is, it's just the way that these things should be done. And you know, the whole community spirit of it and, um, changing the world for the way that, way that it should be.
[00:40:39] Marion Ellis: And, and I think female surveyors, I mean all surveyors, but I see it particularly with female surveyors is, we've got to consistently recognize that we have all had different experiences. Um, you know, right, right. The way through there's not, you know, I start talking to women and you can guarantee that there'll be somebody there who went back to [00:41:00] work four days after having a baby, you know, or somebody didn't get maternity leave or, uh, you know, whereas now there are places that offer, you know, a year's maternity leave or really great, you know, great, um, uh, benefits, um, not everywhere, but, you know, and the things but we've got to constantly look at what happened.
[00:41:20] Marion Ellis: You know, where we got to, is it any better, but recognize that the change is coming as well, but just keep that, that dialogue going all the time so that we all feel, feel inclusion. It comes back to knowing that everybody, you know, we talk about being a diverse profession, but which means we're all different and therefore one size doesn't fit all.
[00:41:38] Marion Ellis: We've got to be having that conversation and learning all the time, haven't we?
[00:41:43] Alice Graham: Yeah, and I think, um, if I was to sort of shout you out with what you did with the Women in Surveying Summit, I remember I was watching it, was it pre COVID or, I don't know, I just
[00:41:52] Marion Ellis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:41:54] Alice Graham: And what I liked about that is, like you say, everyone has such different experiences, [00:42:00] and storytelling is such a powerful way of, of getting to know those stories, which is like what you've been doing in the podcast.
[00:42:06] Alice Graham: You get, you know, surveyors that have been doing it for 15 years, and you get people that started in one industry came into surveying and it's when you make time to hear those stories you can appreciate that there's always nuance in, in how life, in professional life works and you can't take it as a given that this person is gonna have the same view as you or but you can always try and Find a common something you can hold on to, to having in common, which for this podcast is irrespective of what your background is, you're a surveyor.
[00:42:41] Alice Graham: And if you're a quantity surveyor, maybe you'll nerd out together on bills of quantities or something. So it's something that you would have in common. So focusing on those similar things that hold you together, like the glue, I suppose, is, is something that will help people to, to. not [00:43:00] necessarily overcome the differences, but to have an appreciation of why they are in the same space together.
[00:43:07] Alice Graham: Yeah.
[00:43:08] Marion Ellis: It's a bit like everyone always says, you know, how do you describe a surveyor or what does a surveyor look like? We're all different. And it's always sort of seen as a, as a negative, whereas I think our strength is in our diversity. And if we approached it as a, as a strength, and that we're all different and we all bring something to the table, it'd be a heck of a lot easier.
[00:43:29] Marion Ellis: you know, to, to, to, to approach going forward. One question that, um, and I'll edit this and jump it back is, um, I want to ask you about visibility. So as you've, um, you know, got involved in these different initiatives, You become more visible. How, how do you feel about that? Has it been something that's easy to do or?
[00:43:53] Alice Graham: Um, it's not always been easy because, um, not everyone shares the same view [00:44:00] about what it means to be visible, especially when you talk about it in terms of being visible through stuff like social media of LinkedIn, et cetera. So you get different camps of people. Some people are sort of like, you know, keep your head down, you know, what's all that LinkedIn stuff about, and then you get people that are really supportive.
[00:44:19] Alice Graham: Um, but for me, keeping a picture of the. Of the big vision that I have for my career and how I want to sort of thinking of, I always think of when I retire one day, what would my legacy be as to what I did and how did I contribute so even though it can feel painful sometimes it's like. If it, if it's feeding into my overall vision of how I'm going to help other people, then, you know, this is like a sort of short term, uh, short term pain for long term gain, if that makes sense.
[00:44:53] Alice Graham: But equally, I think that people who do find themselves that visible need to, once again, Set those [00:45:00] boundaries to have, you know, an inner circle of people they can go to to speak to because obviously if you're very visible, you have to be mindful of who you're going to say things to and all that sort of stuff.
[00:45:10] Alice Graham: But you need those cheerleaders and I've got cheerleaders in my life who, you know, when I make those posts on LinkedIn, they're like, you know, sending me a message to say this, that and the other, but there are people out there who are probably not very happy. Um, and I suppose you just have to stick to the bigger picture, otherwise, if you took the words of the people that are not very happy with the visibility you have, then you're, you're not going to be able to use your voice to what, to, to make the change that needs to happen.
[00:45:40] Alice Graham: Um, yeah, I think it's a hard question to be honest. Um,
[00:45:46] Marion Ellis: You're right. And, and we as, uh, as surveyors and in society, we're so judgmental sometimes of, you know, um, are we showing off, is she showing off by having a podcast with a picture on it? You know, is she showing off by [00:46:00] doing all of this stuff? Who does she think she is to, and I say she, because that's where I see a lot of, um, a lot of pushback just in, in my experience, but it comes back to those values being really grounded.
[00:46:12] Marion Ellis: Right. Right. Uh, uh, belief in you're doing, doing the right thing to, uh, to push through. Um, and you know, you know, I work for myself, so it's, so I can't tell you how liberating that is. Scary as well, but liberating to say what I want to say. But when you work for a company, when you work for a company and a lot of people work for a corporate, um, You know, they don't feel they can post or say anything on LinkedIn for fear of saying the wrong thing.
[00:46:40] Marion Ellis: I see that in my survey hub community where a lot of people, um, post anonymously because they don't want their, their, um, bosses and whatnot to, to say, and you can't comment anonymously, unfortunately, you know, but you do get. Lots of comments and, and, and I think I remember you actually, um, a [00:47:00] couple of years ago sent me, I think it was you anyway, who sent me, uh, did you apply for an award?
[00:47:06] Marion Ellis: Did you win an award?
[00:47:09] Alice Graham: a few, yeah, yeah,
[00:47:10] Marion Ellis: Yeah, yeah. And I think you, you'd put something in about, um, I can't remember if I was a role model or somebody who'd inspired you and you just sent me this, this little note. And I just thought, Oh God, thank you so much for telling me.
[00:47:23] Alice Graham: yeah,
[00:47:24] Marion Ellis: Um, you know, it just says when you get those little thank you for putting yourself out there, it just makes such a difference.
[00:47:32] Alice Graham: yeah, yeah, Yeah. And when you get those sort of messages, it reminds you why you're doing what you're doing. And even if, yeah, like it kind of lights up your day and, and, and yeah, when I've had those, I'm like, yeah, I'm on, I'm on to the right path of what, what I wanted to achieve. Um, even if other people might not be on the same train.
[00:47:52] Marion Ellis: Um, so what's coming up for you, for you next then? So you've, you've got this new role, it's all about the technology, maybe a [00:48:00] bit of travel at some point. What, what's in the future for you, you and your career? I
[00:48:05] Alice Graham: Um, I think for me just, um, settling into this role and understanding the landscape of, um, what, how companies are using technology. So specifically, like I mentioned before, my role is to. It's got two angles to it. There's the external side, which is helping clients to understand their current processes and how they can use Procore to better manage your project finances.
[00:48:30] Alice Graham: But there's also an internal piece, which is some of my colleagues, a lot of them have never worked in the construction industry. So it's also educating them, um, about how construction works. So there's a group of us within the business that have worked in construction and people that are project managers and.
[00:48:48] Alice Graham: they worked in all sorts of different organizations. But if you think about people that have the technical know how of building software, many of them wouldn't have necessarily started off as like, you know, a brickie [00:49:00] or a joiner. So you're trying to educate them about what the clients need because the clients will say, Oh, like, have you thought of this?
[00:49:07] Alice Graham: And have you thought of that? And then where the global role comes into play, um, where you're working with different global regions is. Different people do construction, different countries do construction very differently. Uh, a really funny example is even the things people call, what people call things like a punch list is a snagging list.
[00:49:27] Alice Graham: Now, if you saw somebody, can you get me that punch list? It sounds really intense. So. It's those sort of things. And then you start to realize that construction is very diverse in in the sense of people are doing construction all over the world, but they call it different things. They've got different contractual mechanisms.
[00:49:48] Alice Graham: They've got different ways of doing payments. And so for me, it just feels like a box of endless possibilities because you're going to be dealing with customers that have so [00:50:00] many different needs. And then helping them to get to where they need to be. And so, I think there's a lot of growth in the future.
[00:50:08] Alice Graham: I don't really know in which direction, but it's just, it will, it's going to evolve somehow. But, um, all I can say is I'm super excited for what the future has to hold. Um, yeah.
[00:50:20] Marion Ellis: Love it. Oh, Alice, it's been lovely to talk to you today. Thank you ever so much for joining us on the podcast.
[00:50:26] Alice Graham: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. And it's been a great conversation and keep up the great work with the podcast.
[00:50:32] Marion Ellis: Thanks for listening. If you're new to the podcast, do check out some of our past recordings and when you're ready, leave me a review at Google.
[00:50:55] Marion Ellis: Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. If you're [00:51:00] new to the podcast, do check out some of our past recordings. And when you're ready, leave a review on Google or Apple iTunes, or you can buy me a coffee. All the links are in the show notes. And if you want to find out more about how working with me can support your surveying business journey, just drop me a message or take a look at the resources for surveyors and small businesses at lovesurveying.
[00:51:22] Marion Ellis: com. I'll see you next time.
