ļ»æPhilippa Bancroft
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[00:00:00] Marion Ellis: I'm Marion Ellis, and in today's episode I catch up with Philippa Bancroft, Senior Manager for Public Land at the Greater London Authority. Philippa works with public landowners in London to support them to release land for housing. She's also Vice Chair of the Lionheart Board and recently won the RICS Matrix Ambassador of the Year 2023.
[00:00:35] Marion Ellis: So, uh, welcome to the podcast, Philippa,
[00:00:39] Philippa Bancroft: Thank you very much. It's lovely to be here. Absolutely.
[00:00:41] Marion Ellis: you're just off the back of celebrating your, uh, award winning, uh, RICS matrix. Was it ambassador of the year award? Was it, um,
[00:00:56] Philippa Bancroft: what was it, two weeks ago now?
[00:00:58] Marion Ellis: yeah, yeah. I've never [00:01:00] seen such, um, a shocked face.
[00:01:08] Philippa Bancroft: Honestly, it was, it was such a lovely evening and it was, we had such a good time because I went with Grace and Sosam who were also nominated in the category and we were like, well, this is great because there's three of us, so at least two of us won't win. Um, so it'd be kind of a nice thing together, but we didn't think any of us would win.
[00:01:23] Philippa Bancroft: And honestly, it was, it was an absolute shock because it, it, There were so many people in the category as well. So no, I feel very honoured, very honoured. So yeah, it was great. Really
[00:01:32] Marion Ellis: We'll find, we'll find out a bit more about that, um, uh, as we go through, but can you, uh, just introduce yourself as the kind of work, what kind of, what flavor of surveyor are you, Philippa?
[00:01:42] Philippa Bancroft: It's a good question. It's a good question. So I'm a planning and development surveyor. Um, and I qualified in 2016, uh, and work for the Greater London Authority. Um, and I'm senior manager for public land. So that means that I work with lots of different types of public sector [00:02:00] organisations to help them release land for housing.
[00:02:02] Philippa Bancroft: So release is a very sort of open word, and it means lots of different things in terms of how you might take land that was used as part of a, perhaps a department's purpose, but it's now subject to surplus to their requirements. And so they want to dispose of it in a way that Supports wider social events, so potentially that's around affordable housing, obviously something really critical in London, um, the Mayor's really committed to.
[00:02:28] Philippa Bancroft: Um, and so I try and bring different organisations together, help them think about how they can collaborate, um, and also just kind of champion the fact that we're trying to always think about how we can do more with the public estate and kind of, you know, deliver that housing that's needed in London.
[00:02:43] Marion Ellis: I've got this image of you just sort of, um, ferreting around trying to find bits and scraps of land. I'm saying, what can we do with this? What can we do with this?
[00:02:53] Philippa Bancroft: I also sometimes feel like a vacuum because people shout into one side of me about how unreasonable somebody else is being and then I have to go [00:03:00] and see the other side and say, and how do you think this project is going? And they shout at me as to how, you know, how the other side is being incredibly unreasonable.
[00:03:07] Philippa Bancroft: I have to sort of moderate those messages between the two. And, uh, yeah, it's really, it is really interesting work. And, you know, my background is in development. So I've worked for, um, a few government organizations. So English partnerships, um, and I've learned lots about development in different parts of London and, uh, in the Northwest.
[00:03:27] Philippa Bancroft: And I'm using those skills now to kind of inform how I approach projects and how I encourage people to collaborate.
[00:03:33] Marion Ellis: So how did you get into that at the start?
[00:03:36] Philippa Bancroft: It's really funny. It was literally an A4 poster on the geography, uh, notice board at university for the National Regeneration Agency was starting a graduate program. And, uh, I read it and I was like, Oh, do you know what, that sounds really interesting, like working in regeneration. And the idea was you rotated around a number of different of the offices, the national organization.
[00:03:56] Philippa Bancroft: And, um, and you kind of, I [00:04:00] started back in 2005 with a cohort of 12 of us. Um, and it was. It felt like we were so lucky because we were the first year and so we kind of got to just poke our noses in stuff and find out about things and we made incredibly strong networks, um, in a way that it wasn't until I started working in an office permanently that I realized that people, the offices didn't speak to you, they didn't have a reason to speak to each other, it wasn't kind of...
[00:04:26] Philippa Bancroft: animosity or anything, it just literally was. Everybody was working in their geographical area. And I would say, oh, but, you know, so and so in, um, I don't know, Warrington is working on this, you might want to talk to them, because they've already done something like this. And that was really when I started to realise that it's so important to maintain those connections and networking.
[00:04:43] Philippa Bancroft: And I see that now, I don't really, I don't think I really realised how much networking helps in this sort of sector. Because I think it was kind of like, you know, what you know, not who you know, I was very resistant to that kind of who you know thing, but actually it's not that, it's not who you know in a kind of advancement [00:05:00] way, it's who you know and whose wisdom can you use, whose knowledge can you tap into, whose experiences that you can benefit from, basically, and how can that help you.
[00:05:10] Marion Ellis: That is so, um, uh, insightful and, and that resonates as well. So my first. Um, sort of proper built environment job. I work for a contractor Lang and I was on a graduate scheme and did the same sort of move moved around and the pros and cons to that. But when you then land in a proper job and in a, in an office.
[00:05:34] Marion Ellis: You then, you know, you talk about, you know, sort of different people. It's like, Oh, who does she think she is? Who do they know? You just think. And it's such a, you know, um, they're hard to get on these graduate jobs and it's, you know, uh, they're not always well paid and all of those things, but it's such a privilege to be able to sort of zoom out and zoom in and to see an organization, um, uh, as a whole.
[00:05:59] Marion Ellis: [00:06:00] And, and I, I saw that again. Um, when I moved from as a jobbing surveyor in quotes into a head office role, you know, again, that's sort of all the different, different layers and you, you just think, you know, if only people could just talk to each other across. You know, it, it reminds me a bit of, um, a bit random, you know, like the, the railway links, you can get a train up and down, but if you want to go across anywhere in the UK, it's, it's a nightmare
[00:06:29] Philippa Bancroft: And that's fundamentally what my job is. It's kind of making things, somebody described it the other day, it's like oiling things and reducing friction and kind of helping flows work better. Um, and yeah, and I love it. It's just because I'm continually learning and I think the fact that I get to work with all these people on their really interesting projects and they're doing good stuff and I get to have a look in and see what's going on.
[00:06:52] Philippa Bancroft: And then, and hopefully help. Um, and I think, I mean, I always say this, if I'm doing my job well you can't see me doing it because actually problems don't [00:07:00] arise. And we're sort of doing things better just because. That's the way it's going, but I do, I am very conscious that I'm constantly asking people to do things slightly differently to business as usual.
[00:07:11] Philippa Bancroft: And that's quite challenging. Um, and you know, obviously it's about finding how there are compromises maybe, but what I try, I try not to sell as a comp, I try and sell it more as a win win. Um, you know, what can we do that would make this project better for everybody? Um, and, and so how can we make that, that work more?
[00:07:28] Philippa Bancroft: So, yeah, I think it's just, um, it's being able to talk to people as well. And just learning from people. It's just awesome. There's so much knowledge out there and so many people are so willing to share it as well. That's the wonderful thing is that people love to, and, and, and, you know, built environment, I'm sure it's the same in other sectors, but they just love talking about their jobs and the projects they're working on.
[00:07:48] Philippa Bancroft: So that's, that's brilliant for me as well. Yeah,
[00:07:51] Marion Ellis: to, to literally anybody who will listen about this,
[00:07:55] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah.
[00:07:55] Marion Ellis: this thing that I've seen today, or this thing that I've done [00:08:00] to somebody who gets it for sure. Are there, um, are there many of you, um, of your type of surveyors, if you put it, put it that way. Oh, well, but both.
[00:08:16] Philippa Bancroft: Do you know, actually, I don't know. Um, I think my, my role is relatively unusual in the sense that I sit, I guess, because London is a strategic area. So, um, there, there are programs like One Public Estate, which is a combination of the local government association and cabinet office. And they do a lot around helping public sector organizations work together to look at their estate.
[00:08:43] Philippa Bancroft: Um, but, So I don't know, actually,
[00:08:50] Marion Ellis: Well, maybe there's somebody out there listening who will say,
[00:08:52] Philippa Bancroft: yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's what I'm doing somewhere else. Um,
[00:08:56] Marion Ellis: isn't that just the whole, um, the whole [00:09:00] thing about surveying and the, how diverse it is and how we do all very different things.
[00:09:07] Philippa Bancroft: yeah, I mean, it sometimes feels like it's not surveying, but then I'm so embedded in the built environment. Um, so a lot of the skills I use are, they're actually like mediation skills and trust and enabling people to be honest about what's wrong, going on with their projects. And actually that's quite a big thing in itself because, you know, I'm there trying to fix things, but if people don't tell me what needs fixing, I can't help.
[00:09:30] Philippa Bancroft: Um, so I need to be able to create a space for them where they feel comfortable that they can be honest about what's going wrong. And, and, you know, that's easy if it's somebody else and you can complain about. ex organization over there who'd be incredibly unhelpful or whatever. Um, but sometimes it's like, we just need to kind of unpick this a bit.
[00:09:48] Philippa Bancroft: Um, and that's, that's where I think a lot of my kind of chatting comes in, trying to put people at their ease, you know, just kind of having a bit of a chat so that it feels like it's not, uh, [00:10:00] an interrogation. It's more just a kind of, ah, so how's it going? Um, and actually I did a mediation course not that long ago.
[00:10:07] Philippa Bancroft: So I was, um, I'm working as a facilitator. called facilitated conversations. So instead of grievances, we try and do resolution. Um, and so I did some media training. It's so interesting because it taught me so much about like the power of the open question and leaving people space to just talk. And then the active listening and, you know, we talk about active listening all the time, but actually to sit and just hear somebody and what's going on for them can be so valuable in terms of really getting to the root.
[00:10:40] Philippa Bancroft: Of where the problem is, because it might be called one thing, but actually when you talk about it, it turns out it's something completely different. And you never have got to that through an email, because if you just said what's wrong, they'd have listed the top three things and gone, that's it. But actually, if you talk to them and just kind of enable them to open up, then you actually get to [00:11:00] what is Hmm.
[00:11:00] Philippa Bancroft: Hmm.
[00:11:03] Marion Ellis: Again, that resonates a lot with me in terms of, um, it should resonate with me in terms of the podcast, but I'm too busy talking over people and interested most of the time. But in terms of, uh, when I deal with complaints and claims, because what they tell you the problem is on an email or, you know, when a building's been re inspected or you get the lawyer's report back or whatever.
[00:11:25] Marion Ellis: But when you actually look at, well, what is the root cause of this problem or whatever's happened? It's because somebody didn't feel supported, you know, they were worried and their, their, their niggles weren't ironed out and then it, then it snowballs and, you know, becomes a series of unfortunate events.
[00:11:44] Marion Ellis: Um, but yeah, and it's a big, sorry, go on, go on.
[00:11:48] Philippa Bancroft: So I was gonna say it's a bit like that with Lionheart, it's really funny because we talk about what people present as the problem, and then what services they actually access. And that can be so different, because they ring us to say this is the [00:12:00] problem that I have, but the, the counselling staff then speak to them.
[00:12:05] Philippa Bancroft: And they just, incredibly carefully and sensitively enable people to be open and honest. And I think that's, you know, where they bring such value is that people go, okay, I can, I can admit this being wrong. Um, so I'll call up and talk about that. And then over time, you know, building that trust and enabling people to be open about where the problem really lies.
[00:12:27] Philippa Bancroft: So important. Um,
[00:12:29] Marion Ellis: So let me ask you about Lionheart on what your involvement is.
[00:12:33] Philippa Bancroft: and so I'm vice chair of the board, um, which is, uh, Not at all where I expected to be, honestly. Um, I saw the advert, uh, back in 2020 for new trustees and I thought, you know what, sounds really interesting. I do a lot of things because I think they sound interesting, you'll find that about me. Um, but, uh, I've been a school governor for a while.
[00:12:55] Philippa Bancroft: Because, and it was a slightly cynical move, because I was like, I need to know what governance [00:13:00] looks like. And school governing is incredibly easy to get into because you basically, and this is what happened, I literally, I sent them an email and about 10 o'clock in the morning, and by two o'clock a school had rung me and said, would you like to be our governor?
[00:13:11] Philippa Bancroft: Because they're so desperate for governess. And I was like, Oh, brilliant. This will be so useful in terms of just understanding how governance works, because it's not something that I was doing my day job. I didn't have, you know, it was relatively junior, um, didn't have insight into that. Uh, so I had some really good governance experience.
[00:13:30] Philippa Bancroft: So then be able to talk about it in my, um, interview for Lionheart, and I joined, um, there's a cohort of four of us that joined at the same time back in May 2020. And I mean, it was an odd place to start because obviously it was all online. It
[00:13:44] Marion Ellis: middle of a pandemic.
[00:13:45] Philippa Bancroft: really difficult. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So we were also facing the fact that we didn't quite know where surveyors were going to be in the pandemic in terms of what were the problems that were going to be facing them.
[00:13:57] Philippa Bancroft: And initially we thought, you know, lots of people would [00:14:00] get laid off and there'd be this kind of massive call on grants. Um, but then actually a lot of what then happened was people were kind of looking for more, um, support services because actually they were incredibly overworked and stressed. And, you know, all the things they were having to do in their new job were creating problems for them in different ways than we'd anticipated.
[00:14:21] Philippa Bancroft: So it was a real period of kind of just holding on and keeping it steady. And it was such a great learning experience. And then, yeah, this summer, I stepped up to be vice chair. So I'm working really closely with Peter McRae, who's incredibly insightful, such a great person to learn from in
[00:14:41] Marion Ellis: I've asked him so many times to be on the podcast. I have to ask him again.
[00:14:48] Philippa Bancroft: Um, but yeah, so it's been, and I think it does it just, it builds my understanding of some of the things I work in on my day job as well. So it's some of that strategic thinking that people who I'm talking [00:15:00] to at senior levels are having to think about in their own organizations. I've got more of an insight to because I'm seeing it in Lionheart and getting that real kind of, um, cold face experience, I guess.
[00:15:11] Philippa Bancroft: Um, but it's, it's an amazing organization. to work with. Um, I'm just so proud to be on their board because they do such great work, um, and help people in so many different ways. And I think that's the thing is that, um, people think, oh, well, I don't need Lionhearts help because I don't need a financial grant.
[00:15:29] Philippa Bancroft: Um, but actually that's not what they're about really. They are, they have that, and that's not, you know, an opportunity, but it's so much more than that. And they're doing so much more around resilience. So that it doesn't get to crisis before people, you know, call them and, and I think it's just, it's something that I wish people did.
[00:15:47] Philippa Bancroft: I think lots of people are starting to know about it, but it's like remembering it when the time is relevant for you, which is why I bang on about it all the time, because honestly, you know, it, it, it might just be one day somebody sees a post and goes, Oh, [00:16:00] that actually is what I need to do. Um, but they won't remember it from a fortnight ago, a month ago, whatever.
[00:16:06] Philippa Bancroft: So. It's constant to keep it just up in people's minds.
[00:16:10] Marion Ellis: And Lionheart is, um, I mean, you know, I've, uh, I've interviewed Davina and I know in the past, and, um, we could link to that in the, uh, in the show notes. And I know them that she's leaving and there's a, you're looking at getting a new CEO in. Um, and the thing I would, I would say about Lionheart is. The what, if there's one thing that you could take away from this podcast is just get on their mailing list,
[00:16:33] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah.
[00:16:35] Marion Ellis: you know, you can delete the emails that come through, you can unsubscribe so you only get certain ones, but just get on their mailing list, have a look through the, their website, because even if you don't use them, the, the, the power and that ripple effect of just knowing that there is something out there that can support you.
[00:16:55] Marion Ellis: It's huge, even if you never use it, you could recommend it to somebody else, or you could just [00:17:00] go up and have a look at something, but just knowing that there is some kind of support or safety blanket in some way is hugely powerful. Um, and there's a couple of things that I would, uh, recommend people, um, have a look at, uh, webinar library.
[00:17:16] Marion Ellis: Um, where they've got, um, a really good, um, stack of webinars on all sorts of different things. And most of it counts as, uh, some, some kind of CPD, some, I think, even formal CPD. I'm not sure, but you can, you can have a look and, and record that as CPD. Um, and also there's a new initiative that they've, um, partnered up with something called Nudge.
[00:17:37] Marion Ellis: Um, which is to do with sort of financial education. And I'll put a link to it in the, in the show notes, but I, I, I sort of got sent this and thought, God, it's all about money. You know, I just thought that's the thing I really want to, you know, look at, look at doing, but I, I registered, I registered on it and I, and I had a look and it was interesting cause it wasn't, you know, this is how you do your [00:18:00] budget, Marion, or this is how you do your whatever.
[00:18:01] Marion Ellis: It was like a series of really interesting articles. So I now feel supported that. If I need to go somewhere, you know, um, you know, the cost of living crisis and we've got winter coming and you know, all the different things that there's somewhere to go where you can get that kind of sort of financial education.
[00:18:19] Marion Ellis: So I've got a bit more digging around to do on that, but I'd really recommend anyone listening just to register for these things. Um, you're registering for all sorts of other stuff, you know, so get on there and have a look. But I thought that was a really interesting initiative going down the financial
[00:18:35] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah. And I think also people follow them on the socials. So definitely LinkedIn, for example, if you're following Following them on LinkedIn and then you liking them, maybe somebody in your network will see it as well because, you know, that, the magic of LinkedIn. So that also feels like a really good way to kind of just remind people that they're there.
[00:18:55] Philippa Bancroft: You don't have to like everything, although Hayley would tell me that they absolutely do have to like everything. [00:19:00] Um, but it's just about, you know, just reminding people at the right time. Lionheart is definitely there for them. it's one of our, you know, your member benefits. You're entitled to, uh,
[00:19:13] Marion Ellis: Well, yeah, it's, it's interesting, you know, over the past couple of years, how to see how Lionheart has, has changed and I'm seeing a lot more alignment with RICS now, in terms of some of the things that they offer, or, um, even posting on social media and, um, and that, that makes a big difference because it is a, it is a benefit for RICS members and their families and I don't think people realize that even if you were a member for a short period of time, You will always have access to their support in some way, shape or form, you know, so even if life throws all sorts of things at you and also then, you know, um, if you die, for example, you know, there's there's sort of support for families.
[00:19:57] Marion Ellis: You know, because it's not just individual members, it's members in their [00:20:00] families, isn't there?
[00:20:01] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah, no, I've told my husband.
[00:20:02] Marion Ellis: know.
[00:20:03] Philippa Bancroft: I said if I go under the bus, then uh, you know, these guys will thought you out
[00:20:08] Marion Ellis: Well, as I always say, um, to people, my husband has no idea what I do anymore, so maybe I should write, write these things down. So he doesn't, doesn't get a, get a shock. It's interesting you're talking about the pandemic and, um, you know, what you've learned about, about surveyors and, and the support that they, they need.
[00:20:27] Marion Ellis: Or needed through that, because you're right, many of them, um, had to go out and work because they couldn't afford not to. Um, and also because those new mortgage valuations were under the, whatever rules it was for just keeping the country going. But it was quite a scary thing for people to walk into someone's home.
[00:20:49] Marion Ellis: You know, we had in the hub, we had, um, discussions and we did a few sort of early, um, podcasts. I remember doing one with, um, Phil Parnum. Um, you know, we were talking [00:21:00] about, well, what do you do? Do you put like a full, you know, uh, suit, you know, uh, you know, breathing apparatus and all that kind of thing to go into someone's home to do a mortgage valuation and those things and incredibly stressful to be in that.
[00:21:16] Marion Ellis: That kind of,
[00:21:17] Philippa Bancroft: yeah,
[00:21:17] Marion Ellis: kind of environment.
[00:21:19] Philippa Bancroft: yeah. And particularly for people, I guess, who were, you know, SMEs as well, so, you know, not, not having that kind of support network or potentially just feeling very isolated. Um, yeah. In that period. Yeah. No, it was really challenging. I think it, what it actually, one of the things about being on the line hub board is that I come into contact with a whole range of severity, who I otherwise wouldn't, um. So a lot of the people I work with are independent surveyors, that's kind of the ground of the people in, um, in the organization. Um, but actually being on the board, I meet so many more people and find out so much more, uh, interesting information about what their jobs are and how they fit into kind of the [00:22:00] world of surveying.
[00:22:00] Philippa Bancroft: And it's a really great part of the, the board is that it's expanding my kind of horizons. Um, and, and understanding about, you know, how all fits together, because I don't think I would have had that insight, um, for any other channels during the pandemic, uh, because I'm just so far removed from what feels like proper surveying.
[00:22:22] Philippa Bancroft: Um, you know, it was, it was difficult. I mean, I was, I was working on projects that were, you know, looking at how we house homeless people in London, um, during the pandemic, so very different, um, issues, but still. very much based in kind of surveying world, um, and housing and things like that. But, um, yeah, it was, it was, uh, difficult time for lots of people, obviously.
[00:22:43] Philippa Bancroft: Um, but it, but how it's on people we couldn't predict at the beginning where the pain was going to be in terms of the support that people would need.
[00:22:52] Marion Ellis: When we've talked before, you've mentioned, um, is it ACES?
[00:22:56] Philippa Bancroft: Yes,
[00:22:57] Marion Ellis: Tell me about that.
[00:22:59] Philippa Bancroft: so that's [00:23:00] the, oh let me get my teeth in straight, the Association of Chief Estate Surveyors and Property Managers, I want to say, I think it's managers at the end, um, and so that's like a public sector alliance of people who work in If, um, it doesn't tend really, um, estates and property management and so enabling that network to be built, um, as well, because I think, well, certainly for me, I felt like when I was sometimes a bit removed from real surveying, um, but very conscious, as you said, that, you know, the people doing similar jobs in different organizations.
[00:23:33] Philippa Bancroft: So networks like that are so key for people to learn about, you know, good practice. And I think, I mean, my job at the moment is a part of it is to look at how the group. So that's, um, the Great London Authority, uh, places for London, which is the sort of, um, property part of transport for London. Um, the Old Oak Park Royal Development Corporation, London Legacy Development Corporation, the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime, and the London Fire [00:24:00] Brigade.
[00:24:00] Philippa Bancroft: Um, so they all form part of the GLA group, and so we're looking at how we can collaborate better around our estate, um, and thinking about how we don't duplicate Resource it or, you know, create, create more efficiencies, um, but also how we share knowledge and how we don't try and all fight the same problem in slightly different ways.
[00:24:22] Philippa Bancroft: Let's, let's try and sort of come together and share the knowledge that we have and do it better. Um, but again, I would say it's, it's all about nudging people away from business as usual, and that is painful, can be painful if you try and do it too quickly. Um, and also, you know, there are reasons people do business as usual because it works.
[00:24:44] Philippa Bancroft: Right. And that's why it's kind of the set way. So to introduce change, um, can be difficult, particularly if you don't have a, like a really clear rationale, I guess, for, and I think we do, um, in the work that we're doing at the moment, but you know, when, when people aren't clear on why. you would do it differently.
[00:24:59] Philippa Bancroft: [00:25:00] Um, that, that can be really problematic.
[00:25:01] Marion Ellis: that's something that will resonate with, with a lot of surveyors who, um, who work in different sectors, you know, and if, if you're making a stand for being a surveyor, you know, and this is something that's important or it's a safety or it's a, you know, or whatever it is, you're often out on a limb on your own, not necessarily supported, you know, and so it's having that, that, that confidence to be able to do that.
[00:25:27] Marion Ellis: And You know, as a resi surveyor with all my community, you know, there's always somebody that'll agree with me or disagree with me and point me in the right direction. So it comes back to that, building that network of support. That you have and, um, in whatever way that, that looks like, it's not just necessarily about people.
[00:25:47] Marion Ellis: Sometimes it's about resources, listening to podcasts, you know, group, Facebook groups, if that's your thing, you know, so there's, there's a real sort of networking almost like on different levels of, uh, of [00:26:00] support. Um, but then I don't know. It's like, I often feel like I'm the odd one out, you know, in the kind of work that I do and I know I'm not, but.
[00:26:11] Marion Ellis: You know, um, I think sometimes, and again, going back to this sort of survey as being diverse, it's sort of part of it, part of the, the job description comes with, you are a bit odd and a bit different. And that's okay. Or maybe that's just me. I don't know. Um, but it's sort of part of it but using that as your, your strengths. To say, well, yes, you know, I do a slightly different job to you, but this is what I bring to it and this is how I can help. You know? And, and not seeing as the, the, the person who throws a spanner in the works or,
[00:26:48] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah. I try not to be that person.
[00:26:50] Marion Ellis: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't,
[00:26:52] Philippa Bancroft: I try and I try and sell it more positively than sticking my spanner in. Yeah.
[00:26:56] Marion Ellis: yeah. See this is why you're good at that job. And I wouldn't be, because I would just march in [00:27:00] and say, you don't wanna
[00:27:03] Philippa Bancroft: But it's funny, isn't it? Cause sorry. No, I was just going to say, just touch on networking really. the fact that if you'd have told me of, I don't know, an 18 year old that my job would essentially be networking, I would have been horrified because networking to me had this awful connotation of like warm white wine and making idle chit chat with people and I, I'm not very good.
[00:27:26] Philippa Bancroft: In kind of an informal networking situation, I slightly panic, um, but actually it comes really naturally to me when I'm in a one on one situation and I find that much more instinctive somehow. Um, yeah, I think we, I try and try and encourage my team to go to networking. I try and tell it to them. It's not really networking.
[00:27:48] Philippa Bancroft: It's just having a chat. Um, and, you know, just seeing if something comes out of it, but because I think it is important and I think, you know, um, A lot of the work that I do with an organization called Future of London, who are [00:28:00] a sort of built environment, um, uh, sort of think tank and they do, um, uh, leadership programs.
[00:28:06] Philippa Bancroft: They, the, the value that they add is that they can connect people in the built environment. Um, and that they enable people to just not, as you say, feel alone. Um, but to also create opportunities for people to see how they might progress in their career. Um, because sometimes, and I think I feel particularly sometimes in development, we are slightly the odd part of our organization because we're not, we're not developing policies or programs which have very transferable skills within different subjects.
[00:28:40] Philippa Bancroft: Um, we are more certainly facing as a sort of an element of our job, which feels Like it, it's not quite as aligned, um, so to be able to see that there's, you know, other places you can go, um, is, is reassuring.
[00:28:55] Marion Ellis: we met, um, at one of our women in surveying coworking
[00:28:59] Philippa Bancroft: Mmm.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Marion Ellis: Um, now I think. We'd first got to know you LinkedIn because you send some, share some really useful content and I'd recommend people follow you on LinkedIn, but also just a wide variety of life surveyor stuff, you know, and I like, I like things like that.
[00:29:18] Marion Ellis: And so it was really lovely to meet you. I'll meet you there. But, but it was funny because, um, Uh, so we run these women in Spain co working days, they're the most informal thing ever, where basically wherever I'm going, if you want to come sit next to me and work, that's great. You know, nothing, nothing more, more than that.
[00:29:37] Marion Ellis: And it's, it's quite intimidating, you know, going to an event or networking as you, as you say. Um, and I remember, so this film was in London, wasn't it? And I walked into the business center meeting room, whatever they call it there. Um, and you were sat there next to another lady, Emma, um, uh, and I said, hi, you know, and you hadn't, you sat there, [00:30:00] two women on a networking date, had to introduce, introduce yourselves.
[00:30:05] Marion Ellis: And it was like, right, let's go and get a coffee, you know, and, and then we were joined by a couple of other, uh, other people, but I know you're quite passionate about, about sort of diversity and, uh, and women in Spain.
[00:30:17] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah, definitely. And I think that that comes partly as well from the fact that, um, it just seems obvious to me that you would get a better outcome if you asked more people what they want. And that, you know, and I think also it comes from a place where, and I think we discussed this didn't we on the day, that we've all got slightly more bolshie because we've had children and gone, do you know what, I accept this for my child.
[00:30:43] Philippa Bancroft: this is not, this is not good enough. I want the world to be better than this. Um, in a way that I didn't feel strong enough to advocate for myself, but actually now I'm like, yeah, I was on a call with a colleague earlier and she went, you know what, it might just be my age, but I'm just going to say what I think these days.
[00:30:58] Philippa Bancroft: Um, and, [00:31:00] and it's true. It's, I think. the more, the more people we can enable to say what they think, then the better it's got to be for everybody. Because some of the changes that you can make, you know, and it's as simple as, you know, it's a really cliched example, but putting a ramp in will help so many people and not inconvenience anybody.
[00:31:21] Philippa Bancroft: Um, and, and that is a really cliched and very straightforward example, but it's the kind of thing where you just think actually a small tweak here could just make it easier. for whole people and other people wouldn't even notice it's changed. So let's find out what those tweaks are and let's make them.
[00:31:36] Philippa Bancroft: And, and actually we'll find that it just works better for everybody. Um, so yeah, so our Future of London, who I mentioned actually, they run a program called the Emerging Talent Program. And it's specifically aimed at, um, people, young people from Black, Asian and minority ethnic backgrounds who want to get into the built environment sector.
[00:31:55] Philippa Bancroft: Um, and they do a couple of placements with, um, public [00:32:00] sector and private sector organizations, just to introduce them to, you know, what the opportunities might be, and help them build their networks so that when they then come to look for permanent posts, they've got people they can call on, um, and that also, you know, can support them and advocate for them.
[00:32:16] Philippa Bancroft: And I think that's so critical because, you know, there's a piece around, um, people coming into the sector from traditional. Um, sources, shall I say, um, and actually we want to, we want to reach people because we all use buildings, right? So we all should have a say in, in how it works and, you know, all the different people thinking about it.
[00:32:37] Philippa Bancroft: So if we can define the sector, honestly, it would be better for everybody. And I don't, I don't, I can't see that there's, there's losers by doing that. I think it's got to be optimal to do that. So yeah, so I think, I do think it's, it's really important that we expand it because there's no, there's no reason not to.
[00:32:59] Philippa Bancroft: [00:33:00] Let's just make it better for everybody.
[00:33:04] Marion Ellis: And I might agree with you, but you then think, oh, why is it so hard?
[00:33:09] Philippa Bancroft: Oh yeah.
[00:33:10] Marion Ellis: You know, why, and I don't know, and just going back to what you were saying, um, about you know, getting to a certain age and thinking, I am not putting up with this, you know, or I am going to speak my mind. I was just, as you were saying that, I was just reflecting at what point did I, did I become that person? You know, I, I know in some ways I've always been a little bit like that, um, uh, at times, but, but not, certainly not, not always. Um, and it doesn't come, but it doesn't come from a, well, I feel confident enough to say, no, that's the wrong thing. It feels more of a. When something is in, in just, or, you know, that you can see, you know, particularly, you know, when you say, I mean, I've got two children, boy and a girl, and it was the girl that was just like, hang on a minute.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Marion Ellis: That ain't, that ain't gonna happen. Um, and then it's just, again, just while you're talking all these things went through my head, you know, of, well actually our parents, you know, did my parents or my mum sort of speak out as, as much. And I guess it's just culture and that cultural change, you know, through generations we've become, become braver.
[00:34:21] Marion Ellis: Um, you
[00:34:22] Philippa Bancroft: And authentic as well. And I think it's something about this is, this is how I feel. And I now feel confident enough. And I think to a degree it's confidence. I don't think I would say necessarily, um, uh, it's changed hugely, but I think it's just the fact that I have confidence in myself to say, I believe this is wrong and I believe I either have the power to do something about it.
[00:34:45] Philippa Bancroft: And therefore I should use that power or I have. the ability to find somebody who does have the power to do something about it and I should bring it to their attention. Um, and I feel, I definitely feel more able to advocate on behalf of other people. [00:35:00] I'm sure lots of people feel that, that, you know, you can, you can much more easily stand up for somebody else than you can stand up for yourself.
[00:35:06] Philippa Bancroft: Um, and maybe that's because as girls we're to be nice and compliant and, you know, helpful. Um, but, It's definitely something around, yeah, I think, I think it's just getting to an age where you're like, do you know what, I don't want the people coming behind me to face these issues. I want to sort them out so that it's just easier for them.
[00:35:24] Philippa Bancroft: And it's something, you know, we see in the staff networks at work as well. I joined the parents and carers network, um, when I came back because I realized what a terrible colleague I'd been to people who had children before I had children. Because I jumped that they were doing an entirely different full time job on top of, you know, coming into work.
[00:35:44] Philippa Bancroft: Um, and so I wanted to change that and I wanted to, you know, have an impact on the people coming after me to make it different. And one of the things actually this week has been super exciting, um, is that I had IVF to have for my daughter. Um, and when I, uh, [00:36:00] went on our intranet. And I sort of found out what the times were going to be and I was like, right, okay.
[00:36:05] Philippa Bancroft: So I wonder what our fertility policy says. Of course there wasn't a fertility policy. So I emailed HR and was like, um, uh, so I'm about to have IVF. And, um, it's going to be a lot of appointments and, uh, a lot of unpredictability in the process. Cause, um, you know, you kind of have the scams and whatnot, and then they tell you at about 24 the transfer, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:36:27] Philippa Bancroft: Um, I said, you know, what do I do? And they said, well, talk to your line manager about it. And I was like, well, that's fine for me because my line manager was great and we got on really well. Um, but it's that response for everybody. Like you've got to bring up the fact that you are about to try to have children, uh, to your line manager, which by the way, nobody else has to do.
[00:36:49] Philippa Bancroft: Like they can, they can just crack on. Um, And, uh, and, and you have to negotiate it. So this week we have a, uh, a draft fertility policy that's been [00:37:00] drawn up by our HR team. And that, and it is not only, it's not just me that's done it. I, there's lots of people in the organization who think it's a good thing, but it's just an example of something where I want to know that somebody who goes on internet to Google fertility policy will find something in future.
[00:37:17] Philippa Bancroft: And they'll be reassured that they work for an organization that knows that this might be something that they have to face. And that they will be supported in that. Because it's a, I don't know if I can apply it the way I'm saying it. It's quite hard work. Um, to have IVF. Or any other sort of fertility
[00:37:33] Marion Ellis: It's, it's a horrible, it's a horrible, um, thing to go, I mean, I, I haven't myself, but, you know, a couple of my best friends haven't, it's a horrible, you know, an amazing thing, but a horrible thing to, to go through emotionally, physically, um, and then to, you know, have to speak to your line manager about it.
[00:37:53] Marion Ellis: And it's the same as, um, you know, talking about menopause.
[00:37:56] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah.
[00:37:56] Marion Ellis: You know, also about, you know, other personal things. And it's not just [00:38:00] women, it's men, men too, you know, and the trials they have. Um, but having to speak to your, your, your line manager about those things. And in fairness, most line managers have no idea how to
[00:38:11] Philippa Bancroft: well I didn't have any idea.
[00:38:12] Marion Ellis: things.
[00:38:13] Marion Ellis: No, no,
[00:38:13] Philippa Bancroft: I mean, you know, I was sort of saying I don't, I don't really know what I can tell you because I don't really know what's about to happen because, you know, the best one in the world, they tell you what might happen, but they, the doctors can't tell you what's going to happen because they don't know how you're going to respond to various stages of the treatment.
[00:38:28] Philippa Bancroft: You know, it's just all so, and honestly, as a project manager, Marion, it was Okay. a nightmare, because I could not
[00:38:34] Marion Ellis: you can't plan.
[00:38:35] Philippa Bancroft: anything, just like, all these different outcomes that could happen. So I don't know if it was, it was, it was stressful. It was really stressful. I found it really hard work. Um, I was obviously incredibly lucky that it worked on the first time.
[00:38:49] Philippa Bancroft: And, um, I mean, it was, I was, they actually described it on embryo transfer day as a textbook. And I was like, Oh, that's great. They were like, this is what we see in the textbook. We hardly ever see [00:39:00] that. I was like, I was so proud for no good reason, except for the fact that I'd spent so many months, you know, sticking the needles in myself and the work and all those sort of things.
[00:39:09] Philippa Bancroft: And, and I was like, great, I've achieved something. Now let's all just keep our fingers crossed because you just feel constantly like you can't, you can't relax until you get to the end. Uh, because it's just nothing's nothing and you know, that's the same with pregnancy, isn't it? It's just um, one long process of just waiting and hoping
[00:39:31] Marion Ellis: Well, firstly, well done you for, for moving that, that policy through. Um, I
[00:39:35] Philippa Bancroft: but I mean, I can't take credit for I'm
[00:39:37] Marion Ellis: yeah, yeah, but, but even the, the parts that you, that you've contributed to and, and I think I remember seeing you posting something about fertility a couple of years ago, um, on LinkedIn. And, uh, I've been contacted by a few women in the past through sort of women in surveying, you know, how do you handle and obviously refer to Lionheart or, or whatever, you know, not, I'm not an expert on any of these things, but it just goes to show there's a [00:40:00] need for, for people to, um, uh, to reach out.
[00:40:03] Marion Ellis: Um, While you're going through all of that, you've got a job to do too, you know, and we all have, um, stuff going on in our, our lives and, you know, we make quite big and important decisions in terms of buildings, physical safety, you know, the amount of money and budget. Um, how, how did you manage that or what made the difference to that?
[00:40:28] Philippa Bancroft: So I was very honest with my team and I was very fortunate, I think, to work in a team who I felt comfortable to say, Look guys, I'm going to go through this. It's going to make me anxious. I am quite anxious, generally. Um, and it, it definitely made me more anxious. And also, honestly, the, um, one of the sets of drugs, I can't remember what it was.
[00:40:48] Philippa Bancroft: I've forgotten all the names. Um, it just made me really angry. And they did warn me, they warned you, they said, like, this will... This will make you cross. And I was like, I mean, what does that even look [00:41:00] like? Oh, I mean, it, it was unreal. I didn't, I didn't feel like myself at all. And I, and somebody asked me how I was, like, I'm good.
[00:41:08] Philippa Bancroft: Like angry at the moment. They're like, Oh, are you okay? I was like, no, it's like entirely drug induced, which doesn't make it sound any better. But, um, And it was just being honest, and I am, I am quite honest about everything, um, and I'm so lucky to work in a place where that is acceptable. Um, but, uh, yeah, I think it was just being open with people and saying, look, this is, this is not going well, or, um, it's making me feel rough, so I'm going to work Um, you know, it was just, I don't think there was one thing that I could point to that said, made it easier, it was just knowing that the team were all aware.
[00:41:47] Philippa Bancroft: And so, and I do feel for people who don't feel that they can share that with their employer, and they were trying to do it, you know, behind closed doors, and I understand why, there's loads of reasons you might choose not to share it. Um, [00:42:00] but it must make it so much harder, so much harder, in terms of the weight you're bearing.
[00:42:07] Marion Ellis: the thing is, in terms of sharing these things with, You know, so it's important to share these things with your line manager in the best way that you can, because they're there to support you. They've got a, uh, you know, a legal responsibility, if anything, to support you. And sharing things with your colleagues, not everybody wants to share your private life, you know, and all of those things.
[00:42:29] Marion Ellis: And being on the other side of it. You know, when you hear that somebody is struggling with or has an ailment or, you know, whatever it is, we don't need to fix it either. You know, um, and, um, you know, we don't need to, sometimes we don't have the words to know what to say, but we don't have to either. You know, it can just be giving someone a bit of space.
[00:42:52] Marion Ellis: You know, making them a cup of tea, um, you know, uh, just little things really just to know that, [00:43:00] um, that you're there in a supportive way if, if need be, you don't have to, don't have to fix it, don't have to give advice, you know, it's, um,
[00:43:08] Philippa Bancroft: Oh, yes. Don't, don't give advice. Never use the words, at least, um, in any context like that. At least it's not, at least it's not, at least you can. Or, oh, it's just, it's not, and, you know, similarly, actually, when, um, my dad died, um, the people that used words, at least, and I was like, no, there's no, there's no good side to this.
[00:43:30] Philippa Bancroft: Sorry, uh, like, I might be able to talk about that in a little while, but for the time being it's just not a thing I want to hear. Um, it's just not. Just, just say you're sorry. That's fine.
[00:43:43] Marion Ellis: It's that difference between, uh, sympathy and empathy. There's a great little, uh, video with, uh, by Brene Brown. Um, I'll put a, put a link to it in the, in the show notes where they, she sort of explains the, the differences that, um, what is it now, sort of like, uh, [00:44:00] Oh, I can't even remember. I can't remember it now.
[00:44:03] Marion Ellis: Have a, have a look, but it's a, it's a difference between sort of saying, you know, um, the, yeah, like the, the, at least it's not, or here's some ideas or, but it's just saying, I'm just sorry that's happened. I'm just sorry, you know, and, and, and not having to problem solve or fix or, or go
[00:44:22] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah, which is tricky for people in our world, like, where,
[00:44:26] Marion Ellis: because that's what we are, right?
[00:44:27] Philippa Bancroft: what we do. That's what we do.
[00:44:29] Marion Ellis: We fix things, we plan things, we organize things, and now you're telling me to just be there? Um, uh, so we, I saw you, you know, saying at the start of the conversation, uh, at the, uh, uh, Matrix Awards. Um, tell me about your, your entry, because I, one of the things you don't always see In these awards, and I used to be a judge on, on the, when they were called Young Surveyor of the Year Awards, and I've judged on all sorts of different things in the, in [00:45:00] the past.
[00:45:00] Marion Ellis: And it's great, oh God, it's such a career high actually to look at some of these things and, and to get an insight into. You know, people's careers, what makes them tick, the things that they're proud of. And you can see through straight away when it's a marketing or being written by someone, you know, it's, it's not authentic.
[00:45:21] Marion Ellis: Um, and I'm always looking for that stuff, that real tangible stuff that, that just sort of makes it real. And, um, and it's such a privilege to be able to, to see, uh, to see them, but you, you don't always get. You know, being, you know, sitting in the crowd cheering anyone, everyone on, you don't always get to see behind, um, some of that, but tell me a bit about, about the experience of it and I'm putting your entry together because, um, it's not, it's not an easy thing to do, is
[00:45:49] Philippa Bancroft: No, no, it's not. And I, I swithered about it for ages, whether to do it or not, because it doesn't come [00:46:00] naturally, to kind of say, Oh, look, how great I am, look at all the stuff I'm doing. But I thought, do you know what, I'm a running towards the end of the period where I'd be eligible. So I should give it a shot before that time runs out.
[00:46:14] Philippa Bancroft: But also, and this time last year, I wasn't I wasn't very well in a mental health perspective, and, um, I wanted to kind of just give myself the opportunity to reflect on the progress I've made. So I think we had to write the applications in maybe May, June this year. Um, and I was feeling sort of sufficiently better, and I was talking about it with my, um, counsellor.
[00:46:40] Philippa Bancroft: I'm thinking I might, I might enter because I think it might be like quite a good exercise in reflecting on. You know, what I have done and how I have made an impact and she was like, okay, well, you know, don't make it all about achievement, just make it about what, what you, how you feel you make in a difference.[00:47:00]
[00:47:00] Philippa Bancroft: And I think that was a really, really interesting sort of way of looking at it. So I spoke to, um, Peter McRae, um, at Lionheart and Lionheart and sort of asked them for, uh, you know, did they think it was a good idea and would they read my application and, and help me, um, you know, craft it. Um, and actually, um, Peter suggested that, uh, you know, Grace and Sosam apply as well.
[00:47:27] Philippa Bancroft: So I worked with them and the three of us sort of, encouraged each other. And I think that was a lovely thing to do was actually to use it as an opportunity to, to actually, yeah, do you know what? We've all got things we can add here. Why don't we all go for it? And then that will be just a, a great thing to try for.
[00:47:44] Philippa Bancroft: Um, and then we were all three shortlisted, which was fantastic, but I think it was, it took some time to kind of sit down and think, okay, I've only got 300 words in. four different areas or whatever it was, um, how am I going to write things? And I used to, um, had a document open on my [00:48:00] computer and I used to add things every day on my way into London, um, just kind of jot things down and tinker with it so that I could sort of process it and kind of, um, just, I don't know, make it into something that felt like me.
[00:48:16] Philippa Bancroft: that I could own, not, not kind of going, look, here's this shiny big thing that I did, but more kind of, how, how am I using the power that I have? And I do recognize that I have a lot you know, um, power now, um, to influence things. And one of the things, um, that I talked about in the application that I'm, I work with some colleagues to develop a support network for people in the GLA group that I've talked about who are thinking about doing their APC.
[00:48:43] Philippa Bancroft: Because I'd done my APC off my own bat, with almost no internal support. Um, I mean, they gave me some financial support, but, um, there was, there was no structure, um, in terms of helping me get any placement experience or anything. Um, and I was like, yeah, it just made it [00:49:00] a bit harder. And so if we could join up people, these APC, then they can perhaps come together as a cohort or share their opportunities for placements or, or whatever.
[00:49:11] Philippa Bancroft: Um. And it felt like it was just encouraging and one of the explicit things that we put in the terms of reference was that we recognize that we want to encourage specifically people from underrepresented groups in our ICS membership to access this and we want to make sure that they are feeling included and encouraged by anything that we do.
[00:49:32] Philippa Bancroft: Um, that promotes, promotes their career development as well. Um, so I worked with, I sort of, I got buy in from a few senior stakeholders and kind of took them to one side and said, we're thinking about doing this. What do you reckon? Could I have your support? Could I count on you? Um, and that's a real privilege.
[00:49:50] Philippa Bancroft: Like I'm now the, you know, the position within the organisation where I can have those conversations with people, um, and say that, you know, I think, I think we should be doing this. don't you? [00:50:00] Um, and, and it was, it was great. And I, I've actually stepped back and have done the, the setup bits, um, and, and used my influence and things to leave it with people who now are much closer to that, because I do feel increasingly that having done my APC in person in Heathrow, um, I am not, I don't, I don't have the same experience as people who've done it since online and they're much better placed to advise people and to, to give that kind of, um, experience.
[00:50:27] Philippa Bancroft: I mean, I'm still counseling people, obviously. Um, and that's, that's such a pleasure to meet people. It's just, it's great. Cause you. You hear the same things and you just wanna encourage people and go, you are good. Like, let me tell you, you are good. You're good
[00:50:43] Marion Ellis: Isn't it? Isn't it the best thing in the world to do, to do that? And, and most people just need that encouragement, that pat on the head, you know, and it's the nicest. You know, I don't mean that to sound patronizing to people, but it's, it's the nicest, kindest thing that [00:51:00] you could do, because so few of us really get that, that encouragement in, in our careers.
[00:51:05] Marion Ellis: As you're, you're talking about that, you know, about the application process, that is very much, um, what, uh, I talk to people about with their fellowship application. So whether you're doing any award, matrix or fellowship, it's starting off with You know, not the academic achievements, it's what impact am I, am I making and what am I, what am I most proud of?
[00:51:30] Marion Ellis: And the things that you've talked about, about just then, you know, um, you are proud of what you've done, and so it becomes easier. And then adding those little things and keeping a note, and it's exactly those things that makes it sort of a, a believable, you know, entry in a believable story, if you like, that Um, you know, obviously, you know, you can evidence different, different things, but that, that it's that, that magic sparkle, the, that makes a difference.
[00:51:57] Marion Ellis: And, and it's lovely that you, you got [00:52:00] together to do that, because that's what we're doing with the Women in Surveying and our MRICS, FRICS, um, uh, group, which you should be checking out, Philippa. Um. And, um, because you've got it all, uh, you know, and it's, but it's doing it together and having that, having that support and it's not cheating or anything like that.
[00:52:17] Marion Ellis: It's just, you know, bouncing ideas off each other and holding each other to accountability. Um, sometimes, you know, and, uh, but more than anything, more than anything, it's just that opportunity to reflect on your career. The things that you've done, the difference that you've made, what you've enjoyed, and then think, well, what am I gonna do next?
[00:52:41] Philippa Bancroft: Exactly.
[00:52:42] Marion Ellis: You know? And, and, and it's, and and, and it's continuing that journey. You know, it's the same with your, you know, you've got your ambassador award, what are you gonna do with it? You know, you've got your fellowship, what are you gonna do with it? You know, is it just gonna be, be another thing to, to add onto to the shelf and.
[00:52:58] Marion Ellis: And, and that's the bit I [00:53:00] find, uh, quite exciting, you know, is sort of when you're, when you've earned this platform, what can you do with it next? And just as you said, you know, you've, you've got to position where you can now, you know, talk to people about, well, come on, why can't we set this up? You know, why can't we do this?
[00:53:15] Marion Ellis: You know, it just, that's the thing that's really exciting, I think. But
[00:53:19] Philippa Bancroft: Yeah. And I think I, I always characterize myself as not very ambitious. Um, but that said, I'm always looking at the next project. And I've, I've done lots of different additional volunteering stuff because, because I'm always just thinking about, you know, how, how do I continue to learn? And how do I just expand my horizons, basically?
[00:53:42] Philippa Bancroft: I mean, I got involved in, and this is so off topic, we've got, we've gone very far from surveying today, haven't we? But I got involved in a local arts organization, running an art exhibition every summer for two weeks. So I was doing like, I was chair of the committee. Um, But it was just so, I [00:54:00] don't know, challenging, it was like, it was like a really knotty problem that I wanted to kind of sink my teeth into and also meet people who I would never ordinarily come into contact with, you know, honestly, the things I learned about art and artists in that period of time, I'd never come across without doing that voluntary position.
[00:54:19] Philippa Bancroft: And I think that's true of anything you do, which is not just your day job. You know, there's so much. Value to be added that often then actually does have a relevance somehow because it's all transferable skills and that's the
[00:54:30] Marion Ellis: that's it. That, that's exactly it though, isn't it? You know, those transferable skills, those dealing with those knotty difficult situations are exactly what is now helping you in the role that you've got now. And, you know, and all of those things. And, you know, that's something that I would say to people is if you're not getting the experience of life, you know, the, then volunteering, getting involved in different things.
[00:54:54] Marion Ellis: You know, it's, uh, it's never a bad thing, you know, to go and push yourself and push your [00:55:00] boundaries. And we can give ourselves permission to do that, but it's been fabulous talking to you today. Thank you ever so much for finally, thank you ever so much,
[00:55:13] Philippa Bancroft: Oh, it's been lovely. Thanks, Marion. Take care. Bye.
[00:55:16] Marion Ellis: Thanks for listening. If you're new to the podcast, do check out some of our past recordings and when you're ready, leave me a review at Google.
[00:55:39] Marion Ellis: Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening. If you're new to the podcast, do check out some of our past recordings. And when you're ready, leave a review on Google or Apple iTunes, or you can buy me a coffee. All the links are in the show notes. And if you want to find out more about how working with me can support your [00:56:00] surveying business journey, just drop me a message or take a look at the resources for surveyors and small businesses at lovesurveying.
[00:56:06] Marion Ellis: com. I'll see you next time.